Random tip saver activation question.

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Deezl Smoke
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Random tip saver activation question.

Post by Deezl Smoke »

Here's a 2 minute youtube video I put up of just how the issue acts. At random, the Z axis will quit responding to keep the voltage in range, and the tip saver will activate. This is an issue that I have been chasing for some time. Not just on this cut job, but sometimes it will work perfect, then on another day, it will be an issue every couple minutes.
Other than the tip saver activating, there are no other codes or warnings, or indicators of any kind that I know how to find, to tell me what is wrong. I zero the Z between each plate. The Z is quite out of zero, up to .3*** out.
Just a note if you watch the video and see the Z axis on the screen making large variance when working proper, the plate is .875" edge start with 85 amp, and the dross build up between cuts makes the customer supplied plates set a bit caddywompus.

Looking for some pointers that I might look into. Could the Z motor be going bad? Thank you for any ideas.

tcaudle
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by tcaudle »

TURN OFF THE TIP SAVER!
it locks the Z if the voltage spikes and if the torch is high and voltage never comes down naturally when it happens it stays locked. It a legacy setting left over form before the real time VAD was introduced. Use the EOC rule (No others) in SheetCAM to stop end of cut dives.

Lower you Z acceleration number to 20 and also you XY to 20 and you will get smoother cuts. Make sure VAD is set to 85% and is working.
If your CommandCNC version is older than 1.2 then upgrade because the issue where changing the Feedrate (FRO) cause VAD to stop working was fixed.
I know what the function does and how it reacts . No video needed.

Our support forum is a better source for support than Plasma Spider .
tcaudle
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by tcaudle »

If you Z is getting out of sync then its possible your Z up is losing steps during a cut . Tuning the Z numbers (in the DTHC settings) will help that . The z does not keep position in real time . It accumulates the moves and settles up a the end of each cut. Because the material can be less than flat the Z height means very little since its measured from the last touch off . Its a rather meaningless number and what is important its the ACTUAL height abouve the cut and any given time. The tip saver (artifact from the old MACH3 days) was to stop end of cut dives and torch diving passing over a void BUT its not needed if you properly apply the Cut Rule EOC and you tune the axis numbers correctly. Most cutting doe snot require the Z to be as fast as some of the defaults are set., especially thicker material , that does not bounce up when its cut. With the ability to have as many CONFIGS as you want you can have different settings for things to optimize for the type material and cutting you are doing.
Deezl Smoke
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by Deezl Smoke »

Ok, I'll check on the acceleration settings next I turn the machine on. How would the voltage lower naturally? Wouldn't lowering the torch be required?
tcaudle
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by tcaudle »

torch height = torch volts. It the torch is high then so is the voltage. If its high it stays locked....see the issue?

The tip saver only works ff the volts spike is from a void or at the end where it doe snot matter . If its from the material being too far from the torch it never drops the voltage.

Turn the tip saver off!

The other stuff is to make you cuts smoother and prevent Z overshoot . Has nothing to do with the problem except it slows down the UP move s and it MIGHT not lock the Z but if turn off tip saver it will stop
Deezl Smoke
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by Deezl Smoke »

Interesting. I had it wrong then. I thought the dthc would vary the torch height to keep the torch at the correct voltage. To be honest I had no idea what the tip saver feature really does. I'll try turning it off too next fire up. But I am now very curious what my axis motor speeds are currently set at.
tcaudle
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by tcaudle »

Deezl Smoke wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2024 10:25 am Interesting. I had it wrong then. I thought the dthc would vary the torch height to keep the torch at the correct voltage. To be honest I had no idea what the tip saver feature really does. I'll try turning it off too next fire up. But I am now very curious what my axis motor speeds are currently set at.
Exaclty: Thus torch height - torch volts . The PRIMARY adjustment to voltage comes as a result of the arc gap (aka height) so move the torch up and volts go up. Move it down and it goes down. PRESET VOLTS is a TARGET of what voltage the DTHC is trying to match by moving the torch.
Deezl Smoke
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by Deezl Smoke »

Sorry it's taken so long to update, but I slowed the acceleration to 20 from 30. I left the tip saver on to observe for a bit. Lowering the acceleration helped a lot actually. But as you expected, the tip saver, when active, still causes cut quality issues.
I had other things to do for a bit, but jobs have been piling up, so I disabled tip saver and will be cutting without it shortly. I'll report back then. Thanks.
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tinspark
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by tinspark »

Cool Beans good read! Interesting stuff.
When My Gotorch/plasmacam takes a dump or goes the way of the doe-doe bird, I will likely be retrofitting mine with candcnc's plasmacam full upgrade package. I am not hating P-Cams stuff, and am a fan of designedge, but I honestly will look forward to the challange of learning a new software. and getting out of my comfort zone. I am not under a time crunch to burn stuff normally. And do have access to a few machines elsewhere if needed. This one was already upgraded from a 2x2 to a 4x4, with many home built mods, and a few part sfrom them, in lieu of purchasing all of the parts from them.
So if I get CandCNC's retrofix when and if the new PlasmaCam Genesis model makes mine obsolete as they did with their original model to their current DHCII model a while back. Which really P!$$ed a lot of table owners off, oh by the way!! At least I am ready for it and will not just have a boat anchor as many have called their old machines since they refused to pay up ....again.
I am actually not seeing P-CAms upgrade offering from their DHC original model to DHCII model any longer which was up from ay 1 when I purchased my machine back in early 2018. But do see their Genesis Model announcement on the Members Only Forum. But that upgrade or fix may still be available but is not atop of their forum page any longer. I will not be upgrading mine however and will continue to use DesignEdge until, or if it goes bye-bye as well. This thing will look like a "Borg" CNC table (old star trek reference), with all of the crazy looking modifications that will be coming when needed!
I will be reading a LOT more posts like this one.
Let us know how it went
Doug,
4x4 GoTorch- expanded
Height Control/Advanced DesignEdge
Hypertherm 45XP-
Logan Lathe + myriads of other shop toys
**CAUTION**- "Does Not Play Well With Others" :)
Deezl Smoke
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by Deezl Smoke »

"Borg" machines can be some of the best.......sometimes. :Wow

Hoping to try cutting today or tomorrow as time allows. I'll try to get some video too.
tcaudle
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by tcaudle »

Deezl Smoke wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:16 pm Sorry it's taken so long to update, but I slowed the acceleration to 20 from 30. I left the tip saver on to observe for a bit. Lowering the acceleration helped a lot actually. But as you expected, the tip saver, when active, still causes cut quality issues.
I had other things to do for a bit, but jobs have been piling up, so I disabled tip saver and will be cutting without it shortly. I'll report back then. Thanks.
Tip saver is an artifact left over form old MACH3 days BEFORE there was VAD and the much faster DTHC5. It worked okay with the much slower MACH THC logic

The combo of VAD and EOC (cut rule) in SheetCAM with the high speed DTHC5 makes the Tip Saver less than useful. It will be taken out of any future CommandCNC releases. There are newer technologies on the drawing board that will be coming out this year.
Deezl Smoke
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by Deezl Smoke »

Here's a video of the cutting without tip saver. Works awesome now. Thank you tcaudle for all you do here. Next thing I need to do is change out the slats to a shark tooth style to reduce the dross build up which I believe contributes to some of the inconsistent cut quality.
tcaudle
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by tcaudle »

The one thing that is important in SheetCAM (using our Post and toolset) is to enable the EOC (End of Cut ) Path Rule (global) and to NOT use ANY otehr Cut rules or Path rules. The EOC looks ahead and knows where the end of the cut is and turns the DTHC off a defined (in the rule) distance . If you use lead outs it needs to turn off before it hits the path cross over , not the end of the leadout. Because the speed doe snot slow down before that crossover point VAD is not effective for end of cut diving,
weldguy
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by weldguy »

Great info here, enjoyed the read. Thanks guys.
tcaudle
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by tcaudle »

i will have a surprise for you guys next week . TC
weldguy
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by weldguy »

Awesome, I love surprises 😃
tcaudle
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by tcaudle »

lLogosml.png
Hint

You currently do not have access to download this file.
To gain download access for DXF, SVG & other files Click Here

Deezl Smoke
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by Deezl Smoke »

tcaudle wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:14 pm lLogosml.png
Hint
Hmmmmm......... 8-)
weldguy
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Re: Random tip saver activation question.

Post by weldguy »

Teasing us :HaHa :HaHa
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