Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

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Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

Post by Joe Jones »

I have been trying to find the time to do an experiment with my Plasmacam table. I just don't have a helper, or the energy to do this myself.

We all remember as kids, using a magnifying glass to burn lines into wooden picnic tables, and boards. Some of you might have even been evil little b#$^&s who incinerated ants fur fun. :cry:

With the advent of CNC, I am really wondering if it is possible to BURN a nice, detailed design into a sheet of birch plywood for example, using only the PlasmaCam table, and the SUN.

Assuming the sun is directly over the table, and a magnifying glass is mounted to the backing plate in place of a plasma torch, it SHOULD work rather well. You would determine the height of the magnifying glass over the material for the hottest focal point. That would be your cut height. Since the table has two inches of Z, you could simply start and stop the burn by raising or lowering the Z, which would throw the burn point out of focus and the heat would effectively be turned off.

The issue is the position of the sun. This is why I BELIEVE the table would need to be mounted to a solar tracking device, much like those that keep the solar panels pointed directly at the sun all day. I THINK the gantry and carriage would still be able to move around on the table frame, even though it was at an angle.

Imagine a very detailed old west design, with the ranch, and the cows, and the horses and cowboys ... You bring the table out on a sunny day with no clouds, position it so the tracker can follow the arc of the sun, and start the process.

The GREAT thing about using a CNC table for this, is ... you can get very thin black lines with a magnifying glass, or you can raise or lower the lens ever so slightly, to create a wider line that is lighter brown. The cnc table could control the height of the lens over the material AND the X/Y speed with precision not possible with the human hand.

It would be nice if PlasmaCam would add a feature to control the cut speed of each individual path, or even increase or decrease the speed of the cut along a given path. WOW! That would sure make this experiment awesome!

I truly believe this would open up a whole new world of pyrographic art. The wood burning we did as kids, but with computer precision.

If I was only 24 instead of 64 ... what I wouldn't do!

Joe


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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

Post by plasmanewbie »

Joe, have you been puffing on the wacky tobacky? I mean it's an interesting thought but you just got lasers for that don't you?
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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

Post by Joe Jones »

plasmanewbie wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:02 pm Joe, have you been puffing on the wacky tobacky? I mean it's an interesting thought but you just got lasers for that don't you?
Yes, I do. However, a laser cannot lay down a variable width, variable heat path like a magnifying glass can.

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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

Post by plasmanewbie »

Yes, you have lasers or yes, you've been puffing? lol, just ball busting Joe.

Anyway I know some lasers you can change the distance or focal point the get a wider or narrower path. May be something to experiment with.
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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

Post by Joe Jones »

plasmanewbie wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:10 pm Yes, you have lasers or yes, you've been puffing? lol, just ball busting Joe.

Anyway I know some lasers you can change the distance or focal point the get a wider or narrower path. May be something to experiment with.
This is all about experimentation. Buying a blender, and seeing if you can convert it into a chainsaw. :lol:

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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

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I decided to move forward with this experiment while the sun shines. I bought the dual axis solar tracking device from Amazon, and I will do the initial experiments soon. I do have two new PlasmaCam 4x4 rails with the gear racks that I bought off of eBay, and I have extra carriages, etc. All I need is another 4x4 gantry assembly, but I CAN use a GoTorch gantry temporarily, at least for the initial experiments. That will give me a 2x4 cutting area, or maybe I will just mount a GoTorch on the device and restrict the initial experiments to a 2'x2' cutting area. I have six of them sitting around, collecting dust ...

I sure could use a capable helper!

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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

Post by djreiswig »

Too bad you can't customize the gcode for your PlasmaCam table. I'm pretty confident I could control all sorts of things with my Mach3 controlled unit. Guess that's one of the tradeoffs on a one program table.
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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

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djreiswig wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:40 pm Too bad you can't customize the gcode for your PlasmaCam table. I'm pretty confident I could control all sorts of things with my Mach3 controlled unit. Guess that's one of the tradeoffs on a one program table.
Some cars have an automatic transmission. Other cars have a four, five, six or 7 speed stick shift. The majority of people do without the extra control of the stick shift, in favor of the automatic.

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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

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djreiswig wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:40 pm Too bad you can't customize the gcode for your PlasmaCam table. I'm pretty confident I could control all sorts of things with my Mach3 controlled unit. Guess that's one of the tradeoffs on a one program table.
As it turns out, I CAN control the speed of independent paths via the 3D upgrade :mrgreen: It is a setting I have never used, but Jason contacted me to show me that this is possible using DesignEdge. Apparently you ASSIGN an individual cut speed to any specific path, and the machine will cut THAT PATH at the speed you have specified, even if the rest of the design is being cut at a different speed. This now means that using a laser or the sun in this experiment will allow me to change the degree of burn into wood based on both the cut height (putting the hot spot in and out of focus) as well as slowing down the machine for given paths, to burn deeper and darker. This will also be of great benefit to people who want to use an airbrush with the table.

DesignEdge is so cool!

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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

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Joe Jones wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:23 pm I decided to move forward with this experiment while the sun shines. I bought the dual axis solar tracking device from Amazon, and I will do the initial experiments soon. I do have two new PlasmaCam 4x4 rails with the gear racks that I bought off of eBay, and I have extra carriages, etc. All I need is another 4x4 gantry assembly, but I CAN use a GoTorch gantry temporarily, at least for the initial experiments. That will give me a 2x4 cutting area, or maybe I will just mount a GoTorch on the device and restrict the initial experiments to a 2'x2' cutting area. I have six of them sitting around, collecting dust ...

I sure could use a capable helper!

Joe

This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Kramer hired a college student to help him solve the worlds oil spill issues with the giant oil bladder :HaHa :HaHa :HaHa Anyone remember Kramerica Industries. You come with some interesting ideas Joe!
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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

Post by djreiswig »

Joe Jones wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:04 pm As it turns out, I CAN control the speed of independent paths via the 3D upgrade.
For an additional $995, I'm sure.
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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

Post by Joe Jones »

djreiswig wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:26 am
Joe Jones wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:04 pm As it turns out, I CAN control the speed of independent paths via the 3D upgrade.
For an additional $995, I'm sure.
Yes, the "Full 3D Upgrade" is a separate module of the software that you can buy for $998.00.

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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

Post by robertspark »

Joe, you like a challenge, have a go at this one

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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

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robertspark wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:14 pm Joe, you like a challenge, have a go at this one

This kid is definitely genius material. He has a very analytical brain. He is wrong about one thing though. An all white puzzle does NOT require you to try every piece in every position.

As a left-handed person, I think in pictures. Some people are really good at crunching DATA. They are "LEFT BRAIN" dominant, while left-handed people are RIGHT BRAIN DOMINANT and all about VISUAL IMAGES.

The pattern of the puzzle pieces is usually consistent, and not truly "random." The number of variations of the pattern defines the complexity of the puzzle, as well as the number of categories of pieces the puzzle contains, based on the number of CONVEX sides and CONCAVE sides, and their orientation, as well as the lateral position of their CONVEX and CONCAVE anomalies.

It also depends on the way the pieces were cut. A cheap puzzle uses the same cut pattern or series of patterns, and only randomizes the X or Y overlay as the cuts move across the puzzle. So a drooping right concave is REPEATED a few times in the puzzle, although never at the same distance from the lower right corner of the piece. Likewise with the other configurations, there will be the rising, horizontal or drooping concave, and rising, horizontal or drooping convex on the horizontal, and all six possibilities on each side. Along the top and bottom, the same scenario is used, so you have the convex that LEANS left or right or is straight, and the concave counterparts, as well as the same thing along the bottom edge of each piece. Thus, there are many possible variations, but they all follow the same rules.

When the white pieces are sorted according to their categories, and then sub sorted according to their orientation using ONE side as the "parent" of the group, you only need to concern yourself with THAT category to find the next piece of the puzzle, and the mating piece gives you a clear image of what you are looking for, and it reduces your choices even further.

I am not about to purchase a 5,000 piece ALL WHITE puzzle just to prove my point. I already did that back in high school, where I was able to assemble a 1,000 piece puzzle in only a fraction of the time the "experts" determined a human would need to accomplish the task. You STUDY the pieces until you SEE the patterns, and then the rest is a simple matter of your individual ability to sort by spatial relations.

I used to drive the guys nuts while working in a sign shop in Oceanside, CA. They would need a sheet of plexiglass that was a certain minimum height. I would look at the rack from across the room and tell them, "The fifth one from the left will work..." They would pull the sheet out of the rack and then I'd usually hear it ... "D&*n it Joe! HOW do you do that?!" I'd tell them, "A magician never gives away his secrets!"

I could make a video to explain how to solve the all white puzzle, but would you really watch it?

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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

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1500 puzzle I think was the highest I did and it was a long time ago

I tried another a few years ago (none of them all white/single colour) and gave up with wife and kids moaning about the kitchen table and wanting it back.....

yes I agree that there is a pattern and no you don't have to try every piece every time..... also the less pieces you have the quicker the selection (if you have 10 pieces in a pile all of roughly the same shape then you are more likely to pick the right variant than if you had 200 in a pile)

a few weeks ago I was in a group of people attending a course and the split us into 2 groups, gave both groups a simple puzzle A4 / letter size with big pieces, say 25 /30 wooden pieces, all 1 colour (one matt green the other matt blue) and said solve it. we had about 10 - 15 mins. unfortunately I was in the group that did not solve it..... the logic thinkers..... first thing we did was put all the pieces same colour up..... then find the 4 obvious corner pieces..... then started to assemble the interlocking pieces..... did about say 4/6 groups of 2/3..... then stuck!

it wasn't until the course leader called time and I looked up and to my frustration the other group had solved it..... some of the pieces were up side down, and it did not have all square corners..... some were rounded but it was a rectangle of A4 / letter paper size. us "logic thinkers" didn't get it..... it was obvious that you needed to think outside of the box...... the other group got it by chance more than by thought..... I think someone dropped a piece picked it up and before flipping it over thought " I wonder if it will work upside down"

tried searching for the puzzle moments ago but could not find one.

lots of single colour or smarties ones that I would not have a hope in doing as "impossible puzzles". just thought about Lazer cutting one from an A4 sheet of cardboard (or something without a grain) rounding / shaping 2 of the corners as a jigsaw piece, flipping say 1/2 the pieces over and spraying one side one colour then flipping them all over and doing the other side another single colour.

not tried this yet, but will give it a go later
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(think I'll do it for a present as I'm coming state side in a few weeks for a seagull visit (10 days) to Tucson and St Paul)

sorry I've side tracked your thread.

___________________

to get back on topic, I wonder if you could get a really big magnifying glass (say like 1 or 2 feet in diameter) and sun etch from a greater height. peak sun output is about 1000W per square meter..... at UK latitudes although it varies by time of year and time of day and cloud cover. problem with big magnifying glasses would be focal distance .... stability and a means to "de focus" when you want a gap...... all seems just too technical.

before someone goes all " wow I could build a 1000w laser using the sun" you probably want to think about power density........ I forget the plasma power outputs but say a 45xp hypertherm is about 45A at 145V rated, so the power output is 6525W, and the kerf is about 1mm, so the power density is about 0.005 W/sq m or 0.055 w/sq foot.

my 10W output laser diode has an apparent spot size of 0.08mm which is about 5x10^-8 w/sq m.

hence one cuts steel the other not

I could see any focal spot wobbling quite a bit from any magnifying glass, also remember that the focal distance is the spot size multiplier and it will also multiply the wobble when stuff moves.
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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

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I have invested about $600.00 into the experiment! Maybe it will fail, maybe not.

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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

Post by Joe Jones »

plasmanewbie wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:58 am
This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Kramer hired a college student to help him solve the worlds oil spill issues with the giant oil bladder :HaHa :HaHa :HaHa Anyone remember Kramerica Industries. You come with some interesting ideas Joe!
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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

Post by abmetal »

Well, all I can say is that after reading these posts and watching that video, you brainiacs have sure got my head swimming in circles. I REALLY feel like a peon.

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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

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some guys are just clever, others like me just go with the flow and occasionally dabble with something that looks interesting.

the thing with that video clip is the amount of expensive CNC equipment the guy has .... what do these guys do for a day job.... it's taken me 20 + years to amass lathes, welders, plasma milling router etc, I am obviously missing something in life, and it's not a higher education or an apprenticeship as I've got both, and it's not and engineer accreditation as I've got that too.

im on a fair wage but man guys who can turn around to a whole precision machine shop of top quality tools and turn an idea from a pipe dream to a practical application (of limited use, but interesting if not just to prove a point) of a robot to sort and place jigsaw pieces including all the code for piece recognition and pick and place REALLY surprises me.

I struggle with getting engine and transmission brackets fabricated and alignment and clearance concerns, and exhaust routing.

having a sintered laser 3d printer on hand got me, never mind all the tormach stuff.

it's not jealousy it's wow! and where did I go wrong....

some really clever people about AND they have free time to do crazy stuff to prove a point I guess.
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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

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robertspark wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:56 am
it's not jealousy it's wow! and where did I go wrong....

some really clever people about AND they have free time to do crazy stuff to prove a point I guess.
It is not about proving a point. It is about having a reason to get out of bed in the morning. You have to have something that motivates you to keep trying. For me, I have many goals, most of which I will probably NEVER reach. But those goals keep me trying. I fail often, and I have wasted a King's ransom of money over the years, but then I look at other guys and I think, "I don't want their lives!" ... I have no wife, no kids, no pets, and no plants to water. I like to keep things SIMPLE.

I look at my good friend Jeff, from high school. He is a billionaire. We went to the SAME high school! I think, "Wow! and where did I go wrong?!?"

I look at my long time friend Tom, from my early computer days. He is a billionaire. We hung out in the same Commodore Computer users groups in California. I think, "Wow! and where did I go wrong?!?"

I look at my friend Phillip here in Tennessee. He is a multi-millionaire. We get together now and then on a social level. I think, "Wow! and where did I go wrong?!?"

I look at my friend, Don, with a beautiful wife and 19 children, and about 40 grandchildren! He is a multi-millionaire. We lost contact many years ago. I think, "Wow! and where did he go wrong?!?" :lol:

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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

Post by robertspark »

more money more problems.....

but you get a better class of problem and tools I guess
:)

money doesn't buy happiness.... but I'd like the opportunity to give it a shot though and decide for myself

yup there are some guys who are just on the next level for ideas or design..


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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

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Joe Jones wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:01 pm


I look at my friend Phillip here in Tennessee. He is a multi-millionaire. We get together now and then on a social level. I think, "Wow! and where did I go wrong?!?"

I look at my friend, Don, with a beautiful wife and 19 children, and about 40 grandchildren! He is a multi-millionaire. We lost contact many years ago. I think, "Wow! and where did he go wrong?!?" :lol:

Joe
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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

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cutnweld wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 3:46 pm
I don't think You can measure the value of family. I have a beautiful wife and four young children, Id take them any day over a billion dollars.
Yeah, that is what they keep telling me. :roll:

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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

Post by DieselFumes »

robertspark wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:42 pm
money doesn't buy happiness.... but I'd like the opportunity to give it a shot though and decide for myself
:HaHa :HaHa :HaHa no doubt, me too
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Re: Using the SUN with a PlasmaCam table.

Post by Joe Jones »

The solar tracker arrived! I will return home tomorrow. Now I have to decide whether to start with a GoTorch for proof of concept, or just jump in again, and buy a used DHC2 table to mount onto the tracker frame. Actually, :roll: I have two new 4x4 rails and the carriage. All I really need is a gantry. Hmmm... I don't need the frame, or the legs, or the grates for this project. I can move the controller from my plasma table to the solar experiment and run it like that.

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