M5 command in Mach 3

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stepper
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M5 command in Mach 3

Post by stepper »

Hi Guys
This is my first post following registration, my son and I have recently built a 1500 x 1500 plasma cutter and use a Hypertherm 45XP with the machine torch. Software is Sheetcam and Mach 3, both registered copies.
We have cut numerous parts successfully and overall we are pleased with our efforts, HOWEVER |

The problem we are experiencing is the torch cuts off before the end of every cut, following extensive troubleshooting I have narrowed the problem down to Mach 3 initiating the M5 command before the end of the cut move, I can overcome this by placing a pause of 1.5 seconds before every M5 command but this is not right and causing other issues with extra material being cut at the end of the travel before the torch cuts out following the pause.
I would greatly appreciate any help or advice if you have also experienced this issue. :Sad
weldguy
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by weldguy »

Are you able to post a sample gcode, just something simple like a small square?
robertspark
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by robertspark »

do you have any sheetcam rules set up (such as torch off before end of cut?)

also look in mach3 ports and pins spindle tab, check there are no delays to M3 or M5 (the highlighted yellow bit in the middle bottom , spin up and spin down)

Image
stepper
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by stepper »

Hello robertspark
Sorry for the delay in my response, I have checked the settings as suggested and all my delays are set to zero, my disable spindle relay in not checked as I am using this to activate my torch, I do not have the motor control options checked either.
stepper
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by stepper »

Hello again weldguy
The pause at line N0300 is what I have to add to prevent the torch shutting off.
stepper
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by stepper »

Hi weldguy
The program would help, ooops.
N0010 (Filename: 50mm_Square.tap)
N0020 (Post processor: MP1000-THC.scpost)
N0030 (Date: 02/04/2021)
N0040 G21 (Units: Metric)
N0050 G53 G90 G40
N0060 F1
N0070 (Part: 50mm_Square)
N0080 (Operation: Outside Offset, 0, T1: 2mm Mild Steel Cut)
N0090 M06 T1 F4000 (2mm Mild Steel Cut)
N0100 G00 Z10.0000
N0110 X53.9000 Y53.2000
N0120 Z3.8000
N0130 G28.1 Z3.00
N0140 G92 Z0.0
N0150 G00 Z3.9000
N0160 G92 Z0.0
N0170 G00 Z3.8000
N0180 M03
N0190 G04 P0.2
N0200 G01 Z1.5000 F2000.0
N0210 G03 X50.7000 Y50.0000 I0.0000 J-3.2000 F4000.0
N0220 G01 Y-0.0000
N0230 G02 X50.0000 Y-0.7000 I-0.7000 J0.0000
N0240 G01 X0.0000
N0250 G02 X-0.7000 Y-0.0000 I0.0000 J0.7000
N0260 G01 Y50.0000
N0270 G02 X0.0000 Y50.7000 I0.7000 J0.0000
N0280 G01 X50.0000
N0290 G03 X53.2000 Y53.9000 I0.0000 J3.2000
N0300 G04 P2.0
N0310 M05
N0320 G00 Z10.0000
N0330 X0.0000 Y0.0000
N0340 M05 M30
adbuch
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by adbuch »

Is it possible that your torch is starting to move before it fires? The result will often look like the same phenomena you are experiencing. What are you using for your "Pierce Delay" time, and do you have an option for "Wait for cutting signal before moving"? It would be helpful to see an actual photo of one of your parts (without the 2 sec. dwell time). This would be a photo or photos of the part with the uncut portion before it is removed from the sheet of material.
David
stepper
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by stepper »

Hi
The delay time for pierce as shown on the program is 0.2 seconds. The torch pierces and cuts fine for most of the programmed part, the relay that fires the torch then cuts off before completion. I have excluded and proved there are no external influences on this shut off by simply adding a 2 second dwell just before the M5 command, the part then completes with no issues.
But this is not right and causes issues with over burn, last night I cut a part completely that was 11 metres in total with 55 pierces, to do this, a 2 second delay had to be included before every M5 command.
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by adbuch »

I would like to see a sample cut part (before removed from sheet) so we can confirm that your torch is not moving before the cutting signal is detected. Under normal operation, the machine would wait for cutting signal to be detected, and then wait an additional amount specified by the pierce delay time before actually starting to move along the cut path. Although it may not be the case with your particular situation, often times the operator will complain about the part being not completely cut at the end of the path - when in actuality the problem is at the beginning of the cut path.
David
stepper
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by stepper »

I will cut a 50mm square without the end delay tomorrow and send you the picture, it will of course still be in the sheet as it will not have completed the cut.
Andy
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by adbuch »

stepper wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:19 pm I will cut a 50mm square without the end delay tomorrow and send you the picture, it will of course still be in the sheet as it will not have completed the cut.
Andy
Andy,
It will be helpful if you will use an extra long lead-in (say 12mm or so) so we can clearly see where the cut path begins (and where it should end). If we can clearly see this lead-in cut, then we know your problem is at the end of the cut. If on the other hand a portion (or all) of the lead-in is missing, then we will know that your torch is starting to move along the cut path before the torch fires.
Thanks,
David
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by beefy »

stepper wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:44 pm The problem we are experiencing is the torch cuts off before the end of every cut,

following extensive troubleshooting I have narrowed the problem down to Mach 3 initiating the M5 command before the end of the cut move
The gcode seems fine. I ran it in my controller and single stepped through every line.

But even just looking at the gcode it's clear the torch should only cut off at the end of the cut path (which includes the leadout).

So exactly how do you know Mach3 is initiating the M5 command. From a troubleshooting perspective that is a little vague.
Do you see your "Torch On" LED on the screen go off before the end of cut for example.
Or does that stay on while the real world output signal to fire the torch goes off. If so how do you know that, via an LED on a breakout board, or via measuring with a multi-meter, etc.

With troubleshooting like this the more specific you can be the easier it is to narrow down the cause.

If you do a "dry run" do you get the same results. A "dry run" is where you turn off THC (so that Mach3 does not require the Arc OK signal to commence motion). You turn off your plasma cutter so nothing is cut. Then run the gcode. You could then even turn down the feedrate heaps so it's much easier to follow what's happening, watch the torch on LED during the cut, etc.

At this point in time, based on what you've told us it seems like Mach3 is having a brain fart. Example a pause should not result in extra material being cut. Where you have entered your pause in the gcode, the cut should complete, the torch should then just stay put (still on) for the delay period, then M5 turns it off. If the torch is still travelling DURING a pause command Mach3 is definitely away with the fairies. Unless of course you have a motion controller card which buffers the step pulse signals, etc, and it's the one having a brain fart, and not doing what Mach3 is telling it to do.
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by adbuch »

I agree Keith. The way the code is written, it will move to X50.0, then execute the lead out, then execute the 2 second dwell, and then M05 to shut off the torch. So it is hard to see how in this circumstance the dwell would have any effect other than to keep the torch on for 2 seconds after the cut path has been completed.
David

N0280 G01 X50.0000
N0290 G03 X53.2000 Y53.9000 I0.0000 J3.2000
N0300 G04 P2.0
N0310 M05
N0320 G00 Z10.0000
N0330 X0.0000 Y0.0000
N0340 M05 M30
stepper
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by stepper »

I also agree with you guys however, initiating a dry run and observing the LED on the torch relay, it does switch off before the end of cut. How the delay I have added is stopping this from happening I have no clue, but, it does work albeit it is not right.
Incidentally, I do not have a THC fitted.
Andy
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by robertspark »

are you using a motion controller for mach3 or direct parallel port control?

if motion controller, which one?
stepper
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by stepper »

David, the image you have asked for is attached along with the program used, this is a 25mm square with a 12mm tangential lead in.
25mm SQ_12mm_Lead.png
25mm SQ_12mm_Lead.png (423.07 KiB) Viewed 1279 times
N0010 (Filename: 25mm.tap)
N0020 (Post processor: MP1000-THC_Floating_Z.scpost)
N0030 (Date: 04/04/2021)
N0040 G21 (Units: Metric)
N0050 G53 G90 G40
N0060 F1
N0070 (Part: 25mm)
N0080 (Operation: Outside Offset, 0, T1: 2mm Mild Steel Cut)
N0090 M06 T1 F3000 (2mm Mild Steel Cut)
N0100 G00 Z10.0000
N0110 X25.7000 Y37.0000
N0120 Z3.8000
N0130 G28.1 Z3.00
N0140 G92 Z0.0
N0150 G00 Z3.9000
N0160 G92 Z0.0
N0170 G00 Z3.8000
N0180 M03
N0190 G04 P0.2
N0200 G01 Z1.0000 F1000.0
N0210 Y25.0000 F3000.0
N0220 Y0.0000
N0230 G02 X25.0000 Y-0.7000 I-0.7000 J0.0000
N0240 G01 X0.0000
N0250 G02 X-0.7000 Y0.0000 I0.0000 J0.7000
N0260 G01 Y25.0000
N0270 G02 X0.0000 Y25.7000 I0.7000 J0.0000
N0280 G01 X25.0000
N0300 M05
N0310 G00 Z10.0000
N0320 X0.0000 Y0.0000
N0330 M05 M30
stepper
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by stepper »

The controller is ethernet based.
stepper
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by stepper »

Sorry, it is the Novosun NVEM V2.0
beefy
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by beefy »

OK Stepper, hopefully we are getting a bit closer to narrowing it down.

It's good it also happens on a dry run because you don't have to waste metal doing real cuts.

Modify your gcode file at this line:
N0210 Y25.0000 F3000.0

and change it to something like:
N0210 Y25.0000 F100

Now it will run at a snails pace (easier to monitor) and if you get a helper to monitor the torch on relay LED while you look at the Torch On LED on the screen, note if they both go off at the same time, or does the Mach3 screen Torch On LED stay lit, but the torch fire relay LED goes off. If that's the case then it appears it's something to do with the ethernet motion controller board.
However if the Mach3 screen Torch On LED and the relay LED go off together then it seems Mach3 is commanding the torch to turn off before end of cut.

If it's like the ethernet board I use with UCCNC, it basically receives all the stepper moves, torch on commands, etc from the computer, via the ethernet cable, and buffers the signals on the boards memory, then sends them all out in the correct order and at the correct time, as it was "told to do".
So I'm trying to figure out if Mach3 is telling your ethernet board to do the right thing but your board is not doing it, or your board is doing exactly what Mach3 is telling it to do, but Mach3 is telling it to do the wrong thing.

Hope that all made sense.
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Alibre Design 3D solid modelling
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by robertspark »

I think it's a controller plugin problem where the M5 is being issued out of sync with the motion as soon as it is buffered. I would not have a clue as to how to sort it.

a workaround would be to add a delay to m5 / CW spindle off within the ports and pins >>> spindle settings tab (screenshot I showed earlier)

this will add an automatic delay at the issue of every M5

searching Google for that controller and M5 throws up some known issues and that mach3 refuse to support it as the manufacturer is listed in the hall of shame for selling copied licence files of mach3 (which will throw up a whole load of issues )

sorry I'm out of ideas.
stepper
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by stepper »

Hmm that's not good news, I carried out your suggestion anyway and the Mach 3 torch on led and the torch relay led both go off at the same time.
stepper
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by stepper »

Given the fact I wrongly purchased a controller that is both suspect and not supported by Mach, can anyone suggest a proven controller that is a known brand, supported by Mach and is Etherley connected to my pc.
Thank you all for your support to date.
Andy
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by robertspark »

I don't want to bias your decisions to going the wrong route by choosing something that turns out to be little supported.

My journey (as a hobby user only, I have a day job) has been over many years:
Mach3 (with usb, then ethernet smooth stepper)
Mach4 (ethernet smooth stepper)
Uccnc (with UC400eth and UC300eth)
Linuxcnc (with Mesa 7i76E & 7i92H)

I currently think I should have stuck with linuxcnc from day 1 and learnt it as I've dabbled with it on and off over a number of years and given the support for uccnc from cncdrive seems to have stagnated (due to covid?) I have decided to jump to linuxcnc as I have a lathe that I was looking for something to use it with. uccnc was good / fine / better than Mach3 (and mach4) at simple 3 axis mill, router and plasma cutting. It also has support for rotary axis. Just they have little to no intention to support lathe / turn and it still remains a black box where you are reliant upon them to update their plugin and firmware for bug fixes, and athough you can create plugins and macros, you are still reliant on them to support the underlying code..... hence now I've gone the linuxcnc route which is a LOT easier to install than it was previous, and has some much better (eye candy) GUI's than what was there before and always seems to make slow and consistent progress at development. (key word "consistent")
___________________________________________

I would suggest that you again try to add a delay to the end of M5 within Mach3 and see if you can get it to work.

https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index ... #msg271175

I do not know if your controller plugin is at fault, have you checked you have the most current / up to date plugin ?

https://www.nvcnc.net/nvem.html

You can try emailing them to ask for assistance / support..... it may work, but most of the time Chinese manufacturers just ignore you (now that you've paid for it, support disappeared when the cheque was cashed). Maybe they are different and i should not bias my opinion.
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by adbuch »

stepper wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:17 am David, the image you have asked for is attached along with the program used, this is a 25mm square with a 12mm tangential lead in.

25mm SQ_12mm_Lead.png

Thanks Andy! We can now eliminate any possible problems with your torch moving before it fires. If you can live with a work-around - add the line of code as was previously suggested to introduce the required delay, or modify your post processor to do the equivalent for each pierce, then I see no particular reason at this juncture to run right out and buy a new/different controller. If everything else works fine and you have success with good complete cuts, then for now that is all that really matters.
David
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Re: M5 command in Mach 3

Post by stepper »

Thank you both for your constructive support, I will continue with a work around whilst I explore alternative controllers and software.
Andy
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