Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

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Mr. Fixit
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Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by Mr. Fixit » Sat May 23, 2020 8:05 am

Hello all,

I have a 1.5 KW router and VFD on the way to me which I plan to adapt to my 4' x 4' plasma table. I have read a lot of information and understand that this is a pretty common situation. I believe that I have the basic installation planned out, but never having used a set up like this for making small aluminum parts, I started to wonder about precise X, Y & Z positioning and zeroing so I am hoping that someone can direct me how to set this up if it is possible through Command CNC.

It seems that a number of companies produce an accessory called an "X, Y & Z torch Probe", or something similar to that with a lot of detailed instructions for Mach 3/4, but I have found nothing for Command, or maybe just a case of my ignorance.

Tom at CandCNC has been helpful with some basic info and has indicated that they have a spindle speed control with a VFD interface module in the design stages which will obviously provide router on/off and speed control through Command CNC in the future. In the meanwhile, I will turn the VFD on manually and set the rpm by hand unless someone has a good trick. I know that I can power the VFD from Command through the the accessory outlets, but still no speed control.

Any assistance is greatly appreciated and if there is a more appropriate forum for my inquiries, please advise.

Thanks is advance...

Steve
4' x 4' DIY Table
CandCNC Bladerunner
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Miller Vintage 250 Mig
Miller Syncro 180 Tig
Bridgeport 2J Mill - Fagor Dro
Southbend 14" x 40" EVS Lathe - Fagor Dro
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acourtjester
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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by acourtjester » Sat May 23, 2020 11:29 am

I have setup routers on a few of the table I built, seems like the thing you are looking for is the sensing of the bit to work surface. This is just like the standard Ohmic sensor and uses the same circuit. The only difference is the return path, with plasma the circuit is between the table and the torch tip. The torch tip is a separate wire to an input in the controller and the other part of the circuit is the table itself/metal surface. With a router the router itself is basically the same as the table/ metal surface as it is not isolated electrically. This means the wire that goes to the torch tip will need to be attached to a metal plate that you put on the cutting surface for the router bit to touch. If you machining Aluminum that wire will be attached to it, only during the surface touch operation not during actual machining time.
DIY 4X4 Plasma/Router Table
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Drag Knife and Scribe
Miller Mig welder
13" metal lathe
Small Mill
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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by robertspark » Sat May 23, 2020 1:10 pm

Not convinced that an XYZ probe is worth while IMHO.....

what exactly do you intend to probe on the X & Y axis with it?

last time I looked at an end mill it was not exactly cylindrical and depending upon where the tool stops and you probe from there you'll get a different reading every time in my opinion.....

Yes its a nice idea but consider the profile of your endmills...

In my opinion all you NEED is a home on the X and Y axis and a touchoff means for the tip of the tool

(if you think different please educate me as I cannot see the point as I've got a selection of end mills that are O-flute, 2-flute, for wood aluminium and plastic as well as v-cutters too)





https://openbuildspartstore.com/xyz-touch-probe-plus/

I have home switches on my router and mill which I use a double touch arrangement and they are sensitive and repeatable so that home is always the same machine co-ordinates.

I have one of these which works fine and I can swap from mill to router given it is wireless plus move it around the table (only negative is that it chews through batteries quicker than I would like.... )


https://www.hardware-cnc.nl/images/PDF/ ... 2_V1.3.pdf
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?ca ... hText=DT02
UCCNC,
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Hypertherm Powermax 45 (nonXP)
Neuron Lite THC
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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by acourtjester » Sat May 23, 2020 3:43 pm

This is what I use for the electronics to do the Ohmic sensor for both torch and bit sensing. Simple G-code for movements all it needed.

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DIY 4X4 Plasma/Router Table
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Drag Knife and Scribe
Miller Mig welder
13" metal lathe
Small Mill
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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by Mr. Fixit » Sat May 23, 2020 4:14 pm

acourtjester wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:29 am
I have setup routers on a few of the table I built, seems like the thing you are looking for is the sensing of the bit to work surface. This is just like the standard Ohmic sensor and uses the same circuit. The only difference is the return path, with plasma the circuit is between the table and the torch tip. The torch tip is a separate wire to an input in the controller and the other part of the circuit is the table itself/metal surface. With a router the router itself is basically the same as the table/ metal surface as it is not isolated electrically. This means the wire that goes to the torch tip will need to be attached to a metal plate that you put on the cutting surface for the router bit to touch. If you machining Aluminum that wire will be attached to it, only during the surface touch operation not during actual machining time.
I am pretty clear on this aspect of it as it relates specifically to the Z Axis. There are numerous devices out there that ere edge finders as well so in addition to the Z, they will do the same for X & Y. Seems like this could be helpful in many instances. If using end mills, the broadest part of the helix would need to be set perpendicular to the edge surface for accuracy. I am assuming that it would work the same as an Ohmic and stop the travel on X & Y just the same. In reviewing the various specialty products sold by the system/table manufacturers, it seems that they have a G-code script that goes with the device.

Thanks for the input, pardon the pun :lol:
4' x 4' DIY Table
CandCNC Bladerunner
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Miller Vintage 250 Mig
Miller Syncro 180 Tig
Bridgeport 2J Mill - Fagor Dro
Southbend 14" x 40" EVS Lathe - Fagor Dro
Brook 18" Metal Shaper
Harig 612 Surface Grinder

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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by Mr. Fixit » Sat May 23, 2020 4:24 pm

robertspark wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 1:10 pm
Not convinced that an XYZ probe is worth while IMHO.....

what exactly do you intend to probe on the X & Y axis with it?

last time I looked at an end mill it was not exactly cylindrical and depending upon where the tool stops and you probe from there you'll get a different reading every time in my opinion.....

Yes its a nice idea but consider the profile of your endmills...

In my opinion all you NEED is a home on the X and Y axis and a touchoff means for the tip of the tool

(if you think different please educate me as I cannot see the point as I've got a selection of end mills that are O-flute, 2-flute, for wood aluminium and plastic as well as v-cutters too)





https://openbuildspartstore.com/xyz-touch-probe-plus/

I have home switches on my router and mill which I use a double touch arrangement and they are sensitive and repeatable so that home is always the same machine co-ordinates.

I have one of these which works fine and I can swap from mill to router given it is wireless plus move it around the table (only negative is that it chews through batteries quicker than I would like.... )


https://www.hardware-cnc.nl/images/PDF/ ... 2_V1.3.pdf
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?ca ... hText=DT02

The Openbuilds is one that I have seen and seems pretty good. I agree with you completely with regard to the orientation of the end mill/helix.

I suppose as an alternative, one could use drill rod of the end mill size for the X & Y if was that critical, set those Axes, put the end mill in and then set Z 0.

I do have home switches on my table, but have never really had a use for them while plasma cutting. I typically place the torch wherever I know that can yield the part(d) from and zero all three axes. Maybe my ignorance is preventing the use of the home switches??
Thank you..
4' x 4' DIY Table
CandCNC Bladerunner
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Miller Vintage 250 Mig
Miller Syncro 180 Tig
Bridgeport 2J Mill - Fagor Dro
Southbend 14" x 40" EVS Lathe - Fagor Dro
Brook 18" Metal Shaper
Harig 612 Surface Grinder

Mr. Fixit
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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by Mr. Fixit » Sat May 23, 2020 4:25 pm

acourtjester wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:43 pm
This is what I use for the electronics to do the Ohmic sensor for both torch and bit sensing. Simple G-code for movements all it needed.
This looks interesting, I will check it out.

Thanks..
4' x 4' DIY Table
CandCNC Bladerunner
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Miller Vintage 250 Mig
Miller Syncro 180 Tig
Bridgeport 2J Mill - Fagor Dro
Southbend 14" x 40" EVS Lathe - Fagor Dro
Brook 18" Metal Shaper
Harig 612 Surface Grinder

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acourtjester
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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by acourtjester » Sat May 23, 2020 6:01 pm

I always connect the output signals to the Probe input to the controller electronics. With the plasma I also have a floating head switch as a backup safety hooked into the normal home/limit circuits.
DIY 4X4 Plasma/Router Table
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Drag Knife and Scribe
Miller Mig welder
13" metal lathe
Small Mill
Everlast PowerTig 255 EXT

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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by robertspark » Sat May 23, 2020 6:28 pm

Mr. Fixit wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 4:24 pm
I suppose as an alternative, one could use drill rod of the end mill size for the X & Y if was that critical, set those Axes, put the end mill in and then set Z 0.
Or some silver steel rod.....

I have a couple of lengths of 1/8" and 1/4" that I cut to length which match my collets that I use for other router tools that I've made such as

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3843623
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3978176
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3994417
UCCNC,
Sheetcam
Hypertherm Powermax 45 (nonXP)
Neuron Lite THC
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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by Mr. Fixit » Sat May 23, 2020 7:06 pm

acourtjester wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 6:01 pm
I always connect the output signals to the Probe input to the controller electronics. With the plasma I also have a floating head switch as a backup safety hooked into the normal home/limit circuits.
I do have a floating head switch that I use as you have described for the plasma. I am hoping that as soon as I get the delivery of the router and VFD and set it all up, all of this will come together.
4' x 4' DIY Table
CandCNC Bladerunner
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Miller Vintage 250 Mig
Miller Syncro 180 Tig
Bridgeport 2J Mill - Fagor Dro
Southbend 14" x 40" EVS Lathe - Fagor Dro
Brook 18" Metal Shaper
Harig 612 Surface Grinder

Mr. Fixit
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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by Mr. Fixit » Sat May 23, 2020 7:11 pm

robertspark wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 6:28 pm
Mr. Fixit wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 4:24 pm
I suppose as an alternative, one could use drill rod of the end mill size for the X & Y if was that critical, set those Axes, put the end mill in and then set Z 0.
Or some silver steel rod.....

I have a couple of lengths of 1/8" and 1/4" that I cut to length which match my collets that I use for other router tools that I've made such as

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3843623
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3978176
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3994417
Gotcha, we are on the same page with the constant diameter for X & Y. Very cool things that you have made, thanks for sharing...
4' x 4' DIY Table
CandCNC Bladerunner
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Miller Vintage 250 Mig
Miller Syncro 180 Tig
Bridgeport 2J Mill - Fagor Dro
Southbend 14" x 40" EVS Lathe - Fagor Dro
Brook 18" Metal Shaper
Harig 612 Surface Grinder

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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by acourtjester » Sat May 23, 2020 10:19 pm

Ah router good also other options like drag knife, diamond scribe.



DIY 4X4 Plasma/Router Table
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Drag Knife and Scribe
Miller Mig welder
13" metal lathe
Small Mill
Everlast PowerTig 255 EXT

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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by robertspark » Sun May 24, 2020 3:09 am

Off topic....

Acourtjester, I just spotted this drag knife after one of your clips....

I thought this one has potential as a drop in plasma torch replacement with a nice idea for a grooving wheel and a quick change



(I am presently 3d printing a new design for a plasma floating head with a magnetic breakaway with switches integrated for z home, the floating head and the breakaway with a laser integrated into the mount to tidy up my z axis and make it a bit more rigid with less wobble)
UCCNC,
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Hypertherm Powermax 45 (nonXP)
Neuron Lite THC
Hobby user (4x4 home table)

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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by Mr. Fixit » Sun May 24, 2020 6:42 am

acourtjester wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:29 am
I have setup routers on a few of the table I built, seems like the thing you are looking for is the sensing of the bit to work surface. This is just like the standard Ohmic sensor and uses the same circuit. The only difference is the return path, with plasma the circuit is between the table and the torch tip. The torch tip is a separate wire to an input in the controller and the other part of the circuit is the table itself/metal surface. With a router the router itself is basically the same as the table/ metal surface as it is not isolated electrically. This means the wire that goes to the torch tip will need to be attached to a metal plate that you put on the cutting surface for the router bit to touch. If you machining Aluminum that wire will be attached to it, only during the surface touch operation not during actual machining time.
I forgot to question if I need to purchase the FT-02 feather touch sensor to properly set up the router bit sensing. I never set up Ohmic on my torch, just use the DTHC without issue.

Thanks..
4' x 4' DIY Table
CandCNC Bladerunner
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Miller Vintage 250 Mig
Miller Syncro 180 Tig
Bridgeport 2J Mill - Fagor Dro
Southbend 14" x 40" EVS Lathe - Fagor Dro
Brook 18" Metal Shaper
Harig 612 Surface Grinder

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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by acourtjester » Sun May 24, 2020 10:41 am

I would say no as this acts just like the Feather touch, the only difference is it is setup as NO for the probe input.
DIY 4X4 Plasma/Router Table
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Drag Knife and Scribe
Miller Mig welder
13" metal lathe
Small Mill
Everlast PowerTig 255 EXT

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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by acourtjester » Sun May 24, 2020 10:44 am

Great Robert please post you version of the magnetic break away assembly, alway happy to see other's work. :Like
Alway open to change as I know I don't have all the answers :HaHa :HaHa
No matter how old you are you can still learn :Yay
DIY 4X4 Plasma/Router Table
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Drag Knife and Scribe
Miller Mig welder
13" metal lathe
Small Mill
Everlast PowerTig 255 EXT

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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by Mr. Fixit » Sun May 24, 2020 12:39 pm

acourtjester wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:41 am
I would say no as this acts just like the Feather touch, the only difference is it is setup as NO for the probe input.
Ahh, I was thinking that it would connect to the new device as it would to an Ohmic clip on a torch. :Yay
4' x 4' DIY Table
CandCNC Bladerunner
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Miller Vintage 250 Mig
Miller Syncro 180 Tig
Bridgeport 2J Mill - Fagor Dro
Southbend 14" x 40" EVS Lathe - Fagor Dro
Brook 18" Metal Shaper
Harig 612 Surface Grinder

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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by acourtjester » Sun May 24, 2020 4:05 pm

Here is a simple video of how a router guy set his touch plate up, either the feather touch or water switch serve to isolate the BOB circuits mainly from the Plasma cutting operation.

here he routes aluminum
DIY 4X4 Plasma/Router Table
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Drag Knife and Scribe
Miller Mig welder
13" metal lathe
Small Mill
Everlast PowerTig 255 EXT

Mr. Fixit
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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by Mr. Fixit » Mon May 25, 2020 9:57 am

acourtjester wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:05 pm
Here is a simple video of how a router guy set his touch plate up, either the feather touch or water switch serve to isolate the BOB circuits mainly from the Plasma cutting operation.

here he routes aluminum
Cool Stuff :) Thanks..
4' x 4' DIY Table
CandCNC Bladerunner
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Miller Vintage 250 Mig
Miller Syncro 180 Tig
Bridgeport 2J Mill - Fagor Dro
Southbend 14" x 40" EVS Lathe - Fagor Dro
Brook 18" Metal Shaper
Harig 612 Surface Grinder

User avatar
acourtjester
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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by acourtjester » Tue May 26, 2020 11:00 am

Not to hi-jack this post I have info about the drag knifes files posted above will be in 3-D category. :Like
DIY 4X4 Plasma/Router Table
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Drag Knife and Scribe
Miller Mig welder
13" metal lathe
Small Mill
Everlast PowerTig 255 EXT

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Re: Router Option on Plasma Table - 3 Axis Probe

Post by adbuch » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:07 am

Mr. Fixit wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:57 am
acourtjester wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:05 pm
Here is a simple video of how a router guy set his touch plate up, either the feather touch or water switch serve to isolate the BOB circuits mainly from the Plasma cutting operation.

here he routes aluminum
Cool Stuff :) Thanks..
I don't know if the Gatton can, but the Avid CNC Router Parts table certainly can.
David
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHSfDhyhWgU
Avid cutting aluminum plate.jpg

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