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New Burntable is burning me up!!

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Jray2212
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New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby Jray2212 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:39 pm

I have just purchased a 4x8 Burntable made in Hutto,Tx and a hypertherm 65 to go with it.
The table itself seemed well built solid machine and it came with the computer and software. Hycad, which I hate and don't use, sheetcam and mach 3. I gave up on Hycad real quick and use Inkscape mostly.
The THC is a pain in the butt. But I am new so they may all be. Seems like I am constantly having to tweek it and now have learned that it won't work with fine cut consumables. There are no readouts on it and you have to use two knobs to adjust pierce height and torch height. The response time seems too slow to me to do you much good. I have watched it and seen the metal warp up and the tip drag across before it starts raising it.
Next problem I have had is x/y axis flipping diagonally on the table. I have 4 separate earth ground rods on everything and don't have a clue why this is happening.
If anyone has advice on a GOOD THC that you can set and not have to monkey with all the time I would like to know. I would like to cut 16 and 18ga with a fine cut consumables and with the warping factor feel I need THC but I may be wrong. I thought it strange when the hypertherm manual tells you voltage to set and I have no Voltage meter to read.
Tech support is better than nothing but not very. The torch mount is not very well made either, has play in it and the tension for the torch slide is a bungie cord, and the limit switch is mounted directly above it so if you turn off the THC while mach 3 is open it causes the torch to start going down and you can't stop it and breaks your limit switch off and I guess anything else until you can pull the plug on the computer. So I moved the limit switch to the side and will try not to do that again.
My software training was a joke. I brought a zip drive with a bitmap image on it that I wanted to get ready to cut and the "trainer" couldn't do it and blew me off about it. He has since been fired but don't know if the new guy is any better. When I ask a question I get put on hold while he asks someone else.
Any advice on THC and why x/y flips is appreciated. But beware Burntable!

GPM870
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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby GPM870 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:28 pm

Jayray, when did you visit my shop to use my table? I have had all the same problems and more. I have had to remake and re-engineer a lot of parts to make it functionable. It's a fun journy alone isn't it!!
Powermax 85
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abmagrum
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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby abmagrum » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:46 pm

this might help . go to arclight plasma table website. click on training there is good free demo videos there free and worked great for me . sheet cam and mach 3 videos

I have cand-cnc torch height . works good for me , I have some minor issues but its me not the thc.

I use the fine cuts . they work great . if youre metal is warping you are too hot or cutting to slow

go to hypertherm get the cut speed charts you have to set volts . and cut speed back of 20-25% too start and make sure you have a pressure gauge at the back of the hypertherm don't go below 90 psi

hope this helps some
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Jray2212
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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby Jray2212 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:14 pm

At least I am not alone! So your experience with your burn table is about the same as mine, Gpm870?

Abmagrum, I can't use fine cuts because the voltage is out of the range my THC will read. That's what burntables told me. I also have no way of adjusting volts or even reading volts either on my THC or on mach 3. With your THC do you adjust volts with it?

abmagrum
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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby abmagrum » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:56 pm

I adjust volts its easy I thought mach three was the same for everyone?

google arclight plasma tables on the top of the page click training then click on the mach 3 videos its free
there sheet cam and others

the videos work. I can run my table pretty good because of them.


actually it just popped in my head . do you have cand cnc (torch height controller)? that's probably youre problem.

contact cand cnc to see what it would cost to install it. I think its 625.00 its worth it . on clean store bought metal it is awesome. you run into minor problems on rusty, warped metal you got to have thc it will eliminate a lot of headaches
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Jray2212
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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby Jray2212 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:28 pm

Burntables edited up the mach 3 screen so it is about as basic as you can get. I have been talking to someone that has really helped me understand a lot. I kept wondering why when I tried to watch a training video my mach 3 didn't look like anyone elses. As of today I don't even think I have a true licensed copy of mach 3.
It is kind of like buying a car with a automatic transmission then finding out it only has low gear in it.
I have been talking to tom at cand cnc and he is trying to help me out and get me in shape.
Just telling everyone STAY AWAY FROM BURNTABLES IN HUTTO, TX !!!

GPM870
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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby GPM870 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:08 am

I agree about the Mach screen, it is a very simple stripped down simple version. I don't think that is bad however... if it works. The more options there are the more chances there are of screwing something up! Example: a three band equalizer for a stereo, pretty simple so anyone can adjust it and it will do what it is designed to do. It works but not very flexible, Get a good 30 band and you can make Kermit the frog sound good. I 'm assuming I have the three band so I don't have anything to compare it to. I can't make an educated opinion as far as if it is good or not.
I have watched the videos a couple of times but didn't help me a lot because I don't have that version of Mach.
I will be the first to admit I don't know a lot on how the cnc hardware is all interconnected or how all the "magic" happens where you see an image on the screen and then hopefully appears on the cut table. That is why I purchased a table complete instead of building my own. Don't get me wrong, I am capable of building a table ( I have rebuilt a lot of underengineered parts on my table or just plain stupid stuff (bungi cord THC comes to mind)) but working a minimum of 12 hour days every day at my day job (Thursday was 18 1/2 hours) I really don't have the time to learn all the technical stuff and the time to build a table. I know, my bad, but truth is truth. Now I am paying the price. Now I have to find someone (maybe Jray's guy) to help me out on how to rebuild and make it better. Just had a six million dollar man flashback!
Can I save my frame and put all new controls and hardware on? Is there a package I can purchase that is plug and play off the shelf? Yes, cost is a factor. did you really think it wouldn't be?! Speaking of cost, all the big bucks you think I am making on the long days, think again I'm salaried :cry:
What jray says is unfortunatly all true. I haven't even seen a cnc machine before I purchased mine let alone how they worked. Once I got it I thought that was how they all worked until I got on the spider. I kept hearing about people setting arc voltage, I didnt' know what that was I thought everbody had "the knob" to adjust the torch.
All I can say is reread the last line in jrays lst post

Gerry
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CNCCAJUN
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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby CNCCAJUN » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:42 am

I gotta weigh in . . ..
I hope my 2 cents is worth something to someone or saves someone a "headache".
Over 3 years ago I started the journey toward CNC in hopes of starting a side line business to supplement my
working income and help carry me after I starting collecting "my "Social Security". Well work picked up and
that really threw a kink in my plans. That all said, I kept researching. I have read everything that is available on
the net. I followed dozens of self builds, quizzed 10 plus turnkey vendors & visited every fab shop within a few
hundred miles to see THEIR plasma table. Visited a number of individuals just like me, they too wanted a small
business to supplement their income.

Me, I'm a control systems designer for the past 25+ years. Work in AutoCAD 10 to 12 hours every day.

What I have learned:

A high end turnkey, C & G, RETRO, etc . . . . delivered, set-up, on-site training - $50,000.00 & up . . . .

At the other end of the spectrum we have self built MACH3 (soon to be 4 which may be a deal changer) based machines. The reason you see so many problems with these on the forums is quite simple. . . All of the builders do not possess the same knowledge or tech skills as others. Everybody thinks I'll build a "perfectly square" frame, call Tom @ CandCNC, order a drive/control kit and I'll be up and running in no time. Great idea, although for most, the table absorbs all their time, constantly tweaking and adjusting. Now they have a new hobby. I don't want a hobby that involves working on a machine, I want a working plasma table. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Tom . . I went to visit him in Dallas. He is a unbelievably capable & knowledgeable person. But if you want to go this route you need to be ready to educate yourself . . . It is not plug & play . . There is all also another outfit that offers a package system like Tom does, they start a $7,000+. "MachMotion" . . . You get more, but you pay for it.

After tons of number crunching I figured out if you compare apples to apples you can save about 30% to 40% by building your own. For most of us this will be a 3 to 6 month journey. And I know there is always the guy that woke up one morning, found some old bed rails on the side of the road, got some stepper motors out of an abandoned packaging machine & by 6:00 pm same day was cutting steel with tolerances of .00001".

You have to honest with yourself, how many post do you see about machines not working that identify them as Dynatorch, Tracker, PlasmaCAM, TruCUT or one of the big boys . . . .?

So I have narrowed it down to a couple mid-range priced machines NOT running Mach3 which seems to be the common problem for most. The THC is always the deal breaker. Is it running inside Mach3 or is it stand alone?
It appears to me the people at TruCUT have the solution if you have to live with Mach3. By the way, Mach 4 will be out soon & the guys at MachMOTION mentioned several of the upgrade features will help the plasma table market.

As for me, I really do not want Mach, I would prefer a solid designed for plasma cutting control package, want clean holes & a repeatable working THC.

My self, after a lot of research I think I'll be going with Dynatorch, Tracker or TruCUT . . . . I just wanna cut steel . . .
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TexasDano
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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby TexasDano » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:13 pm

I bought a Plasmaroute 5 x 10 table. I got it in February this year. They build their own THC. It comes with Mach 3 and Sheetcam. I cut slots in pipes on the end of my table with the xy axis and the THC follows the contours great. I had some issues when I started but it was mostly my lack of knowledge about my machine. I almost went burntables. I do not regret my choice after reading some of the reviews.
Last edited by TexasDano on Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby VERSIUS » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:11 am

My THC is from candcnc too and haven't had any problems with it, but I wish I knew what you guys were talking about when you say fine cut consumables... is this something that is just available for hypertherm torches? I have a TD A60 and I can't find any fine cut consumables...

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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby jimcolt » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:43 am

PlasmaCam does not come with Mach3 and SheetCam.

The PlasmaCam machines have their own combined CAD/CAM software that is incredibly easy to learn and use. The latest release is called Design Edge software that has a very nice drawing package that eliminates the need to mave multiple drawing softwares to cover all of your needs. PlasmaCam is a great choice for a machine that is well engineered, easy to learn and easy to use......and has a heigt control system that rivals the best in the industrial world of $100k plasma systems.

Jim


TexasDano wrote:I bought a Plasmacam 5 x 10 table. I got it in February this year. They build their own THC. It comes with Mach 3 and Sheetcam. I cut slots in pipes on the end of my table with the xy axis and the THC follows the contours great. I had some issues when I started but it was mostly my lack of knowledge about my machine. I almost went burntables. I do not regret my choice after reading some of the reviews.

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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby jimcolt » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:44 am

Fine Cut consumables are a Hypertherm only product. They are designed for finer cut quality on materials thinner than 10 gauge at lower speeds and lower (25 to 45 amps) power.

Jim Colt



VERSIUS wrote:My THC is from candcnc too and haven't had any problems with it, but I wish I knew what you guys were talking about when you say fine cut consumables... is this something that is just available for hypertherm torches? I have a TD A60 and I can't find any fine cut consumables...

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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby Coffinscreekcustoms » Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:14 pm

I have a 4x8 burntable I learned that the THC doesn't work for me at all so I just set my height in sheetcam and go with that if my steel worps I just twist my torch a little up word and go with that. I only use hycad for letters then import into auto cad. Just my two cents hope it works for u.
Thanks jake

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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby GPM870 » Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:24 pm

Now I am curious... does anyone have a burntables brand that the THC actually works? :?: I had to cut some more parts for my day job out of 30 gauge steel. It's BS work but a paying job is a paying job. I set up the job so the parts were loosely nested, that way I didn't have to create 12 different G-codes. In those 12 6" X 9" parts it shut down at least 30 times. I had to back up to the last start and recut the 30 segments. It was almost like hand cutting... finger on the button all the time but instead of starting the torch it was resetting it. Finally I got sick of it like so many others and preset my height in mach for each part because the table is so far out of level. Sometimes the nozzle was draging and some times it was 1/2" high. I even got sick of that and set the height low... low enough that the nozzle drags on the the sheet to hold it down. Luckily the cuts were far enough away from each other and the sheet was large enough that it didn't move. I only had to recut one part where "something" went wrong. I'm hoping that I can get some more good paying jobs to cover part of the cost of a different THC. 70 hour weeks at the day job don't let much time for work at home. Before you say it... I have a salary job :cry:
Rant over, you may continue on your normal browsing.
Gerry
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burntables table

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TexasDano
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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby TexasDano » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:45 pm

LOL Jim,
I must have had one too many that evening.
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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby thefabguy » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:54 am

I just bought a 4 x 8 Burntable back in April. I know I have much to learn, but there are many little issues...right off the bat, the controller wasn't getting the signal to move after it pierced so the machine would sit with the tourch on until it stopped. I had to send the controller back to Texas at my cost. They "fixed" it the sameday it was received, and I got it back one day later, but I was discouraged with the fact that the controller wasn't working properly and I had to pay to get it shipped back....Just like everyone else, its fair amount of money to invest in a machine, and you'd think it would at least work the first time you try it....

Jray2212
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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby Jray2212 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:22 pm

Got my new electronics ordered from tom at candcnc.com He has been great at helping me figure out what I need to do to get this table up to a good usable table. Putting on bigger stepper motors and adding one more motor to the gantry travel. My table just has one motor and a shaft going across to the other side so I am splitting the shaft adding pulleys and a belt and am going to drive it with 2 motors. Replacing the x-axis drive screw with a dual start acme screw like it should have so I can get the x-axis 5 turns per inch that I was told it should be.
All of this and $320 for licensed software should set me back less than $2500, and I am adding a feather touch ohmic sensor.
I will keep everyone posted on progress and how well it works. Will be a couple of weeks till I get it in and no telling how long to get the time to get it all hooked up.

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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby Oldsarge » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:37 am

CNCCAJUN, it looks like you've done your due diligence on tables! That being said, there's a lot to be said for building your own table. I built mine in just over 2 months... 6x12 with an adjustable water table, hypertherm 1250 with aDuramax torch and electronics from CandCNC. I researched for almost a year before I started to build, and even then I didn't know everything... Lots of trial and error and frustration! However, in the end I would do it all again because of the knowledge I've gained over the last 10 months.... I know the software and hardware intimately, and can fix any problem with my table in hours, if not minutes.... I just recently added the feather touch setup and updated Mach and Sheet cam to the latest versions, and I really feel my table can rival a $30k machine! My investment was about 8k! This weekend I've cut everything from 14g up to 3/8 and it's been rock solid! If I was to build another table, I really think I could do even better from what I've learned by building my own and teaching myself the software and hardware, and still have less invested than by purchasing a single commercial table. That being said, building your own isn't for everybody! If I was going to buy a turn key solution, especially for what you have planned, the tables I would consider would be Plasma cam or dynatorch. I've seen these tables in operation, and can say they both so am amazing job, and I understand Plasmacam customer service is pretty good, which is very important when you're just getting started! Good luck to you!

Oldsarge
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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby CNCCAJUN » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:42 pm

Thank you good sir . .. with the nice "WALKIE LIFT" in progress . . .

Steve :D
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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby GPM870 » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:13 pm

Well folks I finally got brave (or stupid) enough to try and cut some parts out for myself in the shop that I have been wanting for a long time. I spent a lot of time drawing, editing, measuring, editing again, and then manual nesting to available steel on hand. I finally got everything just the way I wanted it through CAD and Sheetcam then on to Mach. I positioned the plate, powered up the air compressor and the Hyperthem, I had crossed my fingers, toes, and legs for luck and hit start on Mach. That's when things went horribly wrong...
DSCF3003.JPG
DSCF3004.JPG
DSCF3006.JPG
DSCF3007.JPG

Two sets of consumables, a nozzle shield, and a retaining cap not to mention the $50.00 worth of steel all down the crapper. As a public service announcement...if you are considering a Burntables table let these images burn into your brain. I know my brain is burnt up.
Anyone want a good used table :lol: :evil:

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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby jimcolt » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:55 am

You are way off on amperage and other settings if this is the result you are getting. These pictures are not a fair indication on any cutting tables capabilities. In order for the consumables and the cut quality to look like this....your cut specs will have to be so far off the published specs. I don't care if your machine had no height control!

If you want to be fair about this offer up some of the cut specs your are using. Part numbers for the consumables, material thickness, amperage, cut height (actual physical height) pierce height, cut speed etc. A video of the torch while cutting will help.

I have consumables for my Powermax85, especially nozzles and retaining caps that are over 2-1/2 years old that look new compred to yours. My retaining cap is the original one and has many thousand's of feet of cut time. The nozzles in your picture are extremely overheated, could be caused by a lot of things. You don't show the front of the shield, which is the important part to look at to determine the cause of problems. I don't see any electrodes, and the retaining cap looks like it has been used for weeks of high amperage gouging, not plasma cutting.

If you are going to blast a machine, back it up with some data. I guarantee that if I was at your site we would have that machine cutting at book specs in no time, and with excellent cut quality.

Jim Colt

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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby pony » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:32 am

jimcolt wrote:You are way off on amperage and other settings if this is the result you are getting. These pictures are not a fair indication on any cutting tables capabilities. In order for the consumables and the cut quality to look like this....your cut specs will have to be so far off the published specs. I don't care if your machine had no height control!<snip>t


Sometimes you just have to take a step back and start at the beginning. In my eagerness to get cutting I missed some of the basics, like Jim states you probably did.

Look in your plasma cutter manual and find the correct amperage, air pressure, and cut speed for the material you are working with.

As for THC. My TorchMate THC is pretty basic, but works adequately once you set it up properly. For me, this involved setting the material sense pressure first; then moving the torch down to the required height over a piece of scrap material (the scrap material being the same gauge I intended to cut), then cutting a simple straight line. Whilst cutting the line, at the correct height and with my plasma cutter set correctly, I observed the voltage on the THC. A this 'perfect' height it showed how many volts the THC sensed. I used this voltage as a reference point for the THC setting. Now my THC adjusts the torch height until it senses that voltage. In theory meaning the torch is at the perfect height. It works really well.
I'm at the lower end of the market with my equipment. A small 4x4 home assembled TorchMate table, with a Thermal Dynamics A60 plasma cutter with machine torch.

My advice is to start from the beginning and double, no triple, check all your settings. I allocated half a day to do this. No problems since.

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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby pony » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:37 am

If you don't spend the time to cover the basic settings, you'll end up like I did, destroying consumables. This then confounds the problem as not only is your table setup incorrectly, but you are now trying to use bad equipment.

This was my shameful experience when running the table without spending time to input the correct settings, and calibrate the THC. Thankfully no damage was done to my plasma cutter, I can't afford to replace it!
Image

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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby thefabguy » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:29 pm

I have a 48 x 96 Burntable, and I just cut .187 HRS yesterday. I needed a spanner wrench for my race ar, so I designed one up, and coded it...Came out great! Very little dras/slag too! THe settings I used are as follows; Hypertherm 45 @ 45amp, 90psi air, pierce height .18, anti-dive 85% 40ipm... There are many factors to producing quality part, as we all know...One of the biggest I have ran across is line/arc segment length...The longer every segment of my geometry is, the better the part cuts and looks...THe very small segments, make the machine pause, enough to make things really ugly and eat up consumables...Just my two cents...Im still learning this baby...

Image

Image

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Re: New Burntable is burning me up!!

Postby GPM870 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:39 pm

Well guys I finally had a few days to cool off and get to get another $200.00 bag of consumables.
I was cutting 3/8" hot rolled steel at 45 ipm( dropped to 60% for holes) at 65 amps using two new 65 amp nozzles. Pierce height was .153", and 1 second pierce delay. The cut height... I'm 99.99% sure this is where my problem lies, it was somewhere between dragging the nozzle and 1/2". Most of the time closer to 1/2" than 0. I tried to adjust it on the go using "the knob" on the control but it didn't make any difference. The THC just kept going up and down at random. After the first set of consumables I stopped and changed them out, stopped Mach, restarted the computer, and reopened the cut file. I got the same result.
I have an e-mail in to Tom at Candcnc to see if he can do anything for me. i will have to cut my losses with the present controls and upgrade. I hope he is nice to me on price being there isn't any money coming in from any cutting jobs. It will have to come from the day job.
I guess the part that burns me so bad is I expected the machine to work as explained and advertised to me before purchase. I didn't expect extra bells and whistles, just a simple "it works". Would you be happy with your Yugo if the cruise control held your 55 mph speed at between 40 and 83?
Hopefully things will look up soon,
Gerry
I hope you all know I was fairly happy with the cut quality until you showed me your cuts ! :)
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