Plate Marker and Dynatorch

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ROKCRLER
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Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by ROKCRLER »

While I'm content with how my air scribe works, I'm always looking for ways to improve it.
Currently I have my solenoid and regulator feeding a single acting cylinder internally sprung. 130psi shop air, scribe regulator set at 90. I've seen in various posts about two regulators, one for scribe and one for actuator. I am planning on changing to that method.
I have to set the Z height manually to within 1/2" of the surface for cylinder travel, and the table takes over switching the solenoid on and off.
djreiswig posted this https://www.plasmaspider.com/viewtopic. ... 00&t=22927 about WMF and I love the setup.
Question is, how do I modify the post to use ohmic to sense top of material and raise to xx.xx for scribe start but have the solenoid fired to extend and run the scribe with Z movement instead of extending and retracting the cylinder?


Les, thank you for this info.. I changed my post to this and now the scribe works great.
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=31099&p=189023&hil ... st#p189023

Edit:
With the post modified per Les' instructions, the scribe layer is recognized now by the table software, however, i would still like to have the scribe function with z movement instead of switching on/off of the solenoid extending and retracting the scribe for every movement.
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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by acourtjester »

As to the 2 regulators, the setup I used was similar to yours in that I used a single acting cylinder. The difference was I only used about 5 PSI (I think but much lower) for the cylinder. I think it allows you to set the Z height manually at the start to where the cylinder down limit is for good contact on the metal. I'm not sure if you want to have both cut and scribe operations in one G-code. My thought was to have 2 G-codes starting with the scribe first, then cut, using the same start point X0.0, Y0.0.
CNC plate marker (15).JPG
air scribe image.jpg

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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by ROKCRLER »

Tom, i saw your setup as well and I like it, Mine is plumbed like you show.

Here is how the scribe works after modifying my post with M08/M09.
When triggered, it lowers and activates the scribe, I'm hoping to lower it and be able to use the Z for movement. I spoke with Dynatorch (now cncshopandservice) and he stated that the program is written to work this way, i was just hoping that post mods would allow the scribe to work with Z motion, if not, its not the end of the world.
I do want to eliminate the slamming down of the scribe when activated, which should be solved with the dual regulators like y'all suggested.
Both the scribe and cut on the same Gcode works, in this test i omitted the cut as i was testing the scribe.

https://youtube.com/shorts/tOrOTg3R3Jg?feature=share

This was on 0.060 aluminum, 90psi at the solenoid feeding both the scribe and cylinder.
160524.jpeg
This is from the Dynatorch manual:
Basic Description
The Dyna-scribe system uses a carbide tipped pneumatic scriber from Chicago Pneumatics to engrave lines or marks into metal. The scribe is attached to an air slide assembly. An electrical solenoid is used to control the scribe. The solenoid drops the marker to the material and turns on the air to the scribe itself. Each time the scribe turns off at the end of a mark, the scribe is retracted back away from the metal. The travel distance for the scribe is about 1-1/2 inches. The scribe is mounted to a linear bearing and is allowed to “float” on it’s own weight when marking. This maintains consistent marking depth and quality. A rotating knurled collar on the scribe also allows adjustment of the striking intensity of the scribe.
All marking air functions are controlled by M codes in the part program. The system also has an offset G code that tells the system the exact position relationship of the marker and the cutting head. This allows the system to go from marking directly to cutting without any stopping or operator intervention. You may mark the whole sheet and then cut all parts or you may mark a part then cut it and then repeat that process for the entire sheet. Each has advantages or disadvantages depending on the sheet thickness (warpage) and/or the part shape as small parts may tip up and be contacted by the marking system which does not have collision detection at this time.

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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by acourtjester »

I think I have seen that Icon before :HaHa :HaHa
I had mine attached to the Z axis mounting plate, like the router and Plasma torch so the travel for the scribe was shorter. And the lower pressure to reduce the force on the scribe down motion. The action of the scribe itself is enough to mark the metal. Here is a different mount showing the 2 together, I had a line filter behind the scribe mount. Really need a muffler on the table to help with the noise. :Sad
newer scribe mount.JPG

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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by ROKCRLER »

Ill hookup the two regulators and see if that helps, which it should.

Ive been wanting to get one of your marker deals, but real-estate is tight around the torch with the lasers and stuff on the torch body. I think i can modify the back plate of the scribe to bolt on one of your holders. I do have a holder but that requires removing the scribe and bolting on the sharpie mount and vise versa.
Screenshot_20230525-125904.png

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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by ROKCRLER »

Well... i did some more youtubing and found this... Its a Dynatorch table with scribe and sharpie both integrated, mine are two separate mounts, i might be able to combine them.
But notice how controlled the scribe drops and raises, no slamming like mine.
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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by acourtjester »

in this video the cylinder moves down slower he said he uses 32 PSI for the cylinder, camera work stinks.
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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by ROKCRLER »

Tom thank you!... i'll try lowering the pressure here shortly and test again. :Like
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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by ROKCRLER »

I dropped the pressure to 35 from 100 and stalled out the scribe. Upped the pressure to 60 and it worked then stalled. Restarted and upped the pressure until it was steadily humming and ended up at 80psi.
It doesnt dig as bad but still slams down at the end of slide travel. I used a simpler version on this part.
The single gcode works, scribe layer then cut layer.
This is 14ga alum.
PXL_20230525_224330087~01.jpg
This is my setup... still trying to find a spot for your marker assembly..
PXL_20220811_141214360.jpg
Tom thanks for the help man :beer:

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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by djreiswig »

I'll try and post back later with a description of how I have my scribe set up using the z to move it up and down. What post are you currently using?
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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by djreiswig »

I looked back in my records since it's been a while since I installed my scribe. I wasn't able to find the original post I made, although I don't think it was that complicated. If you let me know what post you have, I can try and modify it for you when I get some time.
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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by ROKCRLER »

Thanks man... I'll send it to you
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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by adbuch »

acourtjester wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:43 pm I think I have seen that Icon before :HaHa :HaHa
I had mine attached to the Z axis mounting plate, like the router and Plasma torch so the travel for the scribe was shorter. And the lower pressure to reduce the force on the scribe down motion. The action of the scribe itself is enough to mark the metal. Here is a different mount showing the 2 together, I had a line filter behind the scribe mount. Really need a muffler on the table to help with the noise. :Sad
newer scribe mount.JPG
Tom - that's a great looking setup! I used to have a separate dedicated table for my engraver (air scribe), but sold that table and now need to figure out a clever way to mount both my engraving attachment and torch at the same time without losing table travel for cutting.

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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by acourtjester »

Rokcrler I think a little miss-communications, the scribe need high pressure (90 plus) and the cylinder need lower pressure. The reason for 2 regulators in the air supply setup. And it seems an oiler in the scribe's air will aid longer life too, I think that is what is shown in my image above.
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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by ROKCRLER »

acourtjester wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:47 am Rokcrler I think a little miss-communications, the scribe need high pressure (90 plus) and the cylinder need lower pressure. The reason for 2 regulators in the air supply setup.
No sir, i got it, but only had one regulator when testing, I did adjust the knob on the scribe to increase flow and it smoothed out.
I should have everything replumbed this weekend.

DJ, here is the post:

function OnAbout(event)
ctrl = event:GetTextCtrl()
ctrl:AppendText("Dynatorch post processor\n")
ctrl:AppendText("\n")
ctrl:AppendText("Designed for use with machine having fully automatic thc\n")
ctrl:AppendText("\n")
ctrl:AppendText("Non modal G-codes and coordinates\n")
ctrl:AppendText("Comments enclosed with ( and )\n")
ctrl:AppendText("G23/G25 turn the plasma torch on/off\n")
ctrl:AppendText("M04/M05 turn the oxy-fuel torch on/off\n")
ctrl:AppendText("M60/M61 turn the plate marker on/off\n")
ctrl:AppendText("M08/M09 lower/raise the scriber\n")
ctrl:AppendText("Setting the feed and plunge rate to 0 disables feed rates\n")
ctrl:AppendText("Incremental IJ\n")
end

post.SetOptions(post.ARC_SEGMENTS)

-- revision 3/2/07
-- Removed final safety move. This is now done in SheetCam

-- revision 2/12/09
-- Added plate marker


function OnInit()
lineNumber = 10
post.SetCommentChars ("()", "[]") --make sure ( and ) characters do not appear in system text
post.Text (" (Filename: ", fileName, ")\n")
post.Text (" (Post processor: ", postName, ")\n")
post.Text (" (Date: ", date, ")\n")
if(scale == metric) then
post.Text (" G21 (Units: Metric)\n") --metric mode
else
post.Text (" G20 (Units: Inches)\n") --inch mode
end
post.Text (" G90\n G17\n")
bigArcs = 1 --stitch arc segments together
minArcSize = 0.2 --arcs smaller than this are converted to moves
oldfeed = -1
lasttoolClass = ""
end

function OnNewLine()
post.Text ("N")
post.Number (lineNumber, "0000")
lineNumber = lineNumber + 10
end


function OnFinish()
if(toolClass ~= "PlasmaTool") then
post.Text(" G60\n") --Enable torch mode
end
post.Text (" G25\n M30\n")
end

function OnRapid()
---text(currentx," ",currenty," ",endx," ",endy)
if (math.hypot(endX - currentX, endY - currentY) < 0.001) then return end
if(endX > 1e17 and endX > 1e17) then return end
CheckFeed()
post.Text (" G00")
if(endX < 1e17) then
post.NonModalNumber (" X", endX * scale, "0.0000")
end
if(endY < 1e17) then
post.NonModalNumber (" Y", endY * scale, "0.0000")
end
post.Eol()
end

function OnMove()
if (math.hypot(endX - currentX, endY - currentY) < 0.001) then return end
CheckFeed()
post.Text (" G01")
post.NonModalNumber (" X", endX * scale, "0.0000")
post.NonModalNumber (" Y", endY * scale, "0.0000")
post.Eol()
end

function OnArc()
CheckFeed()
if(arcAngle <0) then
post.Text (" G03")
else
post.Text (" G02")
end
post.NonModalNumber (" X", endX * scale, "0.0000")
post.NonModalNumber (" Y", endY * scale, "0.0000")
post.NonModalNumber (" I",(arcCentreX - currentX) * scale, "0.0000")
post.NonModalNumber (" J",(arcCentreY - currentY) * scale, "0.0000")
post.Eol()
end


function CheckFeed()
if(feedRate == 0) then return end
if(feedRate == oldfeed) then return end
post.NonModalNumber (" F", feedRate * scale, "0.###")
oldfeed = feedRate
post.Eol()
end

function OnPenDown()
if (preheat > 0) then
post.Text (" G04 P")
post.Number (preheat,"0.###")
post.Eol()
end
post.Text (" G23\n")
if(toolClass == "MarkerTool") then
post.Text(" M08\n")
else
post.Text (" G23\n")
end
end


function OnPenUp()
post.Text (" G25\n")
if(toolClass == "MarkerTool") then
post.Text(" M09\n")
else
post.Text (" G25\n")
end
end


function OnNewOperation()
post.Text (" (Operation: ", operationName, ")\n")
end

function OnComment()
post.Text(" (",commentText,")\n")
end

function OnToolChange()
if(toolClass == lasttoolClass) then return end
post.CancelModalNumbers()
if(toolClass == "MarkerTool") then
post.Text(" G61\n") --Enable scriber mode
end
if(toolClass == "PlasmaTool") then
post.Text(" G60\n") --Enable torch mode
end
if(toolClass == "FlameTool") then
post.Text(" G62\n") --Enable flame mode
end
lasttoolClass = toolClass
end


function OnNewPart()
post.Text(" (Part: ",partName,")\n");
end

function OnDrill()
OnRapid()
OnPenDown()
OnPenUp()
end


Another odd thing i noticed yesterday was after the scribing, when it went to cut, the first cut segment went good, the second would pause and arc voltage would shoot up in the 200 range. I noticed double G23 and G25 like back to back. I edited the gcode within Dynatorch software and continued the cut sequence and it completed the cuts. I cannot find where i might have accidentally added the duplicate G23/G25 lines in.

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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by ROKCRLER »

New discovery.
Plumbed supply to regulator to solenoid to a tee one end of tee to scribe one end of tee to regulator to cylinder.
Test fire.. first reg set to 90psi, cylinder extends, second reg set to 30scribe fires, turn off signal, scribe stops when solenoid opens, cylinder stays down. Second reg is not a bleeder.... thoughts?
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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by ROKCRLER »

I found out the first reg, which came with the scribe assembly, is a self relieving/vented unit, i swapped the two i put in.
Now the slide retracts when signal is off and extends when signal is on.
The slide is a 21psi, the scribe is at 92 and looks like its working well. I would still like to slow down the slamming at extend, but its a whole lot softer.

I still would like to see if a post could be written to allow the slide to extend and the scribe start and stay down during the whole operation and have Z movement.

Thanks guys for the help..
Heres todays tests, one 14ga carbon other 14ga alum. 2"x1.5"
I was adjusting pressure and Z position so its missing a few scribes on the carbon.

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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by djreiswig »

Working on modifying your post, but since I don't have a Dynatorch I'm not exactly sure how things function. For instance, how do you handle the offset from the torch to the scribe so that things are aligned properly? I don't see any offset values in the post like thy are in my Mach3 post. Does the G61 handle the offsetting? I can easily make the scribe turn on at the start of the scribe operation and stay on until it is completed, but I'm not sure if this will work correctly. I also don't see any "Z" move commands in your post, only "X" & "Y", so they won't be output in the code. Again, not sure how you would get the scribe to move up on rapid moves. If anybody can enlighten me on how these tables function, I'll see what I can do with the post.
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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by ROKCRLER »

Thanks for looking into this.
The offset is done in dynatorch
Offsets.jpg
Other than duplicate G23 & G25 causing a pause, I think is working pretty good. I if scribe with z movement is not possible, plate sensing and raising to scribe height until scribe operation is completed then touch off and resume cuts. Right now with the duplicate G23/G25, on pierce it pauses then flames out (see the extra large divot), restart and cuts great until the next pierce. I cant find where its entering an extra G23/G25.
This piece is 4.5" x 2.5"

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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by djreiswig »

That helps a lot. So, is your scribe point aligned vertically with the torch tip since there is no z offset? I assume the torch finds the material and that sets the z for everything.
How does this work if you begin with a scribe operation? Does it probe but not fire the torch?
The duplicate G codes are in OnPenUp and OnpenDown. There is a line with the code and then an if else that has the code again if the operation is not a marker. Try putting a double dash (--) before the ones outside of the if else to comment them out and see if that works.
I'm wondering if there is a way to change the z on the fly with a dynatorch or not. It looks like it's locked unless you're using the THC. Maybe someone else will chime in.
I'll keep pondering...
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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by ROKCRLER »

The scribe is mounted in front of the torch.
Offset is set in the software once the distance is determined from torch tip.
I scribed a divot in the metal then used x/y movements until my crosshairs are on the divot and used those dimensions in the offset screen
Scribe is X=4.938" & Y=0.078"
There is no Z motion to sense top of plate, you lower the Z to within .25" to 0.5" from the plate.
I lower the scribe manually and then travel the Z to where the torch is off the plate but the scribe touches the plate, i note the Z travel and give it another 0.02" then start the operation.
Before i start the operation, I change the setting from cutting to scribing, but I think it does it on its own when it sees a G61 code
Cutting-Scribing.jpg
I can manually move Z only when THC is off.

I think I screwed up when I edited the post and added a G23/G25. I have the post that I was using before the scribe and this is how it looks:

function OnPenDown()
if (preheat > 0) then
post.Text (" G04 P")
post.Number (preheat,"0.###")
post.Eol()
end
if(toolClass == "PlasmaTool") then
post.Text (" G23\n")
elseif (toolClass == "FlameTool") then
post.Text (" M04\n")
elseif (toolClass == "MarkerTool") then
post.Text (" M60\n")
end

if (pierceDelay > 0) then
post.Text (" G04 P")
post.Number (pierceDelay,"0.###")
post.Eol()
end
end


function OnPenUp()
if(toolClass == "PlasmaTool") then
post.Text (" G25\n")
elseif (toolClass == "FlameTool") then
post.Text (" M05\n")
elseif (toolClass == "MarkerTool") then
post.Text (" M61\n")
end
if (endDelay > 0) then
post.Text (" G04 P")
post.Number (endDelay,"0.###")
post.Eol()
end
end

Compared to what it is now on the edited post:


function OnPenDown()
if (preheat > 0) then
post.Text (" G04 P")
post.Number (preheat,"0.###")
post.Eol()
end
post.Text (" G23\n")
if(toolClass == "MarkerTool") then
post.Text(" M08\n")
else
post.Text (" G23\n")
end
end


function OnPenUp()
post.Text (" G25\n")
if(toolClass == "MarkerTool") then
post.Text(" M09\n")
else
post.Text (" G25\n")
end
end




This is from the Dynatorch manual:
Basic Description
The Dyna-scribe system uses a carbide tipped pneumatic scriber from Chicago Pneumatics to engrave lines or marks into metal. The scribe is attached to an air slide assembly. An electrical solenoid is used to control the scribe. The solenoid drops the marker to the material and turns on the air to the scribe itself. Each time the scribe turns off at the end of a mark, the scribe is retracted back away from the metal. The travel distance for the scribe is about 1-1/2 inches. The scribe is mounted to a linear bearing and is allowed to “float” on it’s own weight when marking. This maintains consistent marking depth and quality. A rotating knurled collar on the scribe also allows adjustment of the striking intensity of the scribe.
All marking air functions are controlled by M codes in the part program. The system also has an offset G code that tells the system the exact position "relationship of the marker and the cutting head. This allows the system to go from marking directly to cutting without any stopping or operator intervention. You may mark the whole sheet and then cut all parts or you may mark a part then cut it and then repeat that process for the entire sheet. Each has advantages or disadvantages depending on the sheet thickness (warpage) and/or the part shape as small parts may tip up and be contacted by the marking system which does not have collision detection at this time.

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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by djreiswig »

If you can't send a z command in gcode I'm not sure how you're going to get the marker to raise up between lines. Only thing I can think of is if you can adjust the offset on the fly.
If you need the g23/g25 on every tool not just the plasma then you should be able to take out the else part of the statement. The if will just insert the m08 for the marker.
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ROKCRLER
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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by ROKCRLER »

I think I've got it working pretty good now, I edited the post now that I understand it better, I was able to delete the duplicate g23/g25's.
I'll make a mount for the regulators to clean and secure things up, thanks for all the help!
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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by djreiswig »

Great. It's strange that there is no Z move command in their software. I wonder what would happen if you tried to send a G01 Z1. Would it just ignore it or would it crash? Might be worth a try.
2014 Bulltear (StarLab) 4x8
C&CNC EtherCut
Mach3, SheetCam, Draftsight
Hypertherm PM65
Oxy/Acetylene Flame Torch
Pneumatic Plate Marker, Ohmic, 10 inch Rotary Chuck (in progress)
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Re: Plate Marker and Dynatorch

Post by ROKCRLER »

I'm not really sure..

Here is a TAP of the calibration file I used.
In this one, i scribed the cross pattern completely, then cuts the inside cross then the outside square.
I have cut this successfully but i don't see any Z movements either.


N0010 (Filename: etch calibration.tap)
N0020 (Post processor: Dynatorch2.scpost)
N0030 (Date: 27/05/2023)
N0040 G20 (Units: Inches)
N0050 G90
N0060 G17
N0070 (Part: etch calibration)
N0080 (Operation: No Offset, scribe, T101: Pen Tool)
N0090 G61
N0100 F45
N0110 G00 X4.0000 Y2.0000
N0120 M60
N0130 G01 X0.0000 Y2.0000
N0140 M61
N0150 G00 X2.0000 Y0.0000
N0160 M60
N0170 G01 X2.0000 Y4.0000
N0180 (Operation: Inside Offset, Inside, T3: 45A, 16 ga)
N0190 M61
N0200 G60
N0210 F350
N0220 G00 X1.8750 Y2.0775
N0230 G23
N0240 G01 X1.8750 Y2.0975
N0250 G01 X1.0000 Y2.0975
N0260 G03 X0.9025 Y2.0000 I0.0000 J-0.0975
N0270 G03 X1.0000 Y1.9025 I0.0975 J0.0000
N0280 G01 X1.8750 Y1.9025
N0290 G02 X1.9025 Y1.8750 I0.0000 J-0.0275
N0300 G01 X1.9025 Y1.0000
N0310 G03 X2.0000 Y0.9025 I0.0975 J0.0000
N0320 G03 X2.0975 Y1.0000 I0.0000 J0.0975
N0330 G01 X2.0975 Y1.8750
N0340 G02 X2.1250 Y1.9025 I0.0275 J0.0000
N0350 G01 X3.0000 Y1.9025
N0360 G03 X3.0975 Y2.0000 I0.0000 J0.0975
N0370 G03 X3.0000 Y2.0975 I-0.0975 J0.0000
N0380 G01 X2.1250 Y2.0975
N0390 G02 X2.0975 Y2.1250 I0.0000 J0.0275
N0400 G01 X2.0975 Y3.0000
N0410 G03 X2.0000 Y3.0975 I-0.0975 J0.0000
N0420 G03 X1.9025 Y3.0000 I0.0000 J-0.0975
N0430 G01 X1.9025 Y2.1250
N0440 (Operation: Outside Offset, Outside, T3: 45A, 16 ga)
N0450 G25
N0460 G00 X4.1525 Y4.0000
N0470 G23
N0480 G01 X4.0275 Y4.0000
N0490 G01 X4.0275 Y0.0000
N0500 G02 X4.0000 Y-0.0275 I-0.0275 J0.0000
N0510 G01 X0.0000 Y-0.0275
N0520 G02 X-0.0275 Y0.0000 I0.0000 J0.0275
N0530 G01 X-0.0275 Y4.0000
N0540 G02 X0.0000 Y4.0275 I0.0275 J0.0000
N0550 G01 X4.0000 Y4.0275
N0560 G25
N0570 G25
N0580 M30

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