Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

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yeomansjon
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Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by yeomansjon »

I am suspecting that I have a bad Z-axis motor and looking for help confirming that before I buy a new one. I feel like someone must have run into the same problems before that I am having but when I did a search I didn't really see any topics that sounded like my issue.

My Setup - Plasmacam DHC 4x4, Hypertherm Powermax 1000 w/ T60 Torch, 40amp Fine Cut Consumables w/smaller swirl ring, 11 gauge (.120") Mild Cold Rolled Steel Plate, Plenty of clean dry air.

Bottom Line before i give the history run down is that i can never get the z-axis to come back to the same position. If i zero out the z-axis, send the gantry home, then come back to the same position, the z-axis position readout shows a different point and when I re-zero at the exact same spot (within a thousandths or two), the z-axis position changes by 10's of thousandths at least every time. If I pause the cut while not cutting (checking pierce height), its different every time at the same place on the metal surface, and when I'm cutting and pause (checking for cut height) its different every time. Make Sense?

It started with chasing my height control issues in an effort to extend consumable life and improve cut quality. Been running the machine for a year now and it seems that some days i can cut all day with great success and other days it cuts like hell with no change in setup or settings. Finally trying to get a handle on it. I first found that my grating was warped and causing a headache when the torch came down to touch the metal before the cut. The spring action in the metal made it inconsistent so i often burned up a tip when piercing while touching the metal. Fixed that with new grating (nice and rigid and shiny!

Then while I was trying to dial in exact Arc Voltage Shift (AVS) set points to give me the proper cutting height based on the Hypertherm manual for my consumable setup, I found that often times when I tried to zero the z-axis, set the AVS, Pierce Height, Cut Height, at least one or two settings would be 'Out of Range' and it would force them to change to values I didn't want. With the 11 gauge metal and zeroing out on the surface, my z-shift was about .780-.950 depending on which Country Song was playing on the radio at that particular time it felt like. Sometimes it would go over 1 and force itself to a different number but then i would re-initialize and it would often come back within the range I put above.

I then noticed while changing my consumables out to be fresh that the z-axis motor seemed loose. So i pulled the whole thing apart to check and to clean (first time pulling this assembly apart). I noticed the z-axis motor sits on a plate that appears to 'teetering' on the end points like it is meant to do that. Did Plasmacam intend for this 'teetering' action? I have pictures of what I'm talking about and why it appears that the Pcam came with this intended to not sit flat and tight. Anyway, I cleaned the rollers and the rails (some hard gunk appeared to have been formed at the limits). When i put it all back together, the z-axis had much more travel than it used to! I always heard the 'grinding' when it would go to the top or bottom but many people have said (including Pcam reps) that it is normal to hear some chatter. I'm worried that the gunk prevented the movement and the motor chewed itself up. Could this be the case?

Like I said before, sometimes the machine works great, sometimes it doesn't so I know it's not 100% bad. Just intermittent. If anyone has run into this problem I am all ears to what may be causing my problem. Thank you all, you have been a great help in the past. :ugeek:
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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by RobertJohnson »

I've had a similar problem. My z would sometimes lift off the metal between cuts, other times, it wouldn't. I changed my force the other day, works fine now. Raises and lowers between cuts. Not sure if I answered your question, check your force setting. Mine was set to 0, changed it to 12, cutting 14ga steel.
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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by yeomansjon »

That's a good thought and thanks for getting back to me. I may have an older version of the plasmacam software but I don't think I have a setting for the force on the z-axis. I do have an 'overtravel for stall' setpoint measured in inches, I think mine is set at either .3" or .03", i'll check when i get home. I wonder if that equates to a force somehow given it's trying to push a certain distance once it senses the material.
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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by SignTorch Vector Art »

the z axis is a stepper motor and does not have an encoder
The Model DHC2 does provide some cost savings by utilizing a stepper motor for the Z axis only. This motor can miss steps and is much slower and weaker than the X/Y axes motors. However, it's not nearly as critical because the motor only has to control the height of the torch. Accuracy is not affected, less speed is required, and the position is automatically reset by the controller between each cut.
from what I've seen, pcam's z stepper runs on three wires and a case ground, which is peculiar

but, have you tried calling them?

I have often heard that adjusting the force helps,

the z-axis should be plenty rigid for plasma cutting, 'teetering' doesn't sound quite right, there should be practically no free play anywhere, maybe make sure there's two springs on the bottom of the carriage, if one of those are missing that could cause some noticeable teetering....
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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by jimcolt »

I strongly recommend that you join the PlasmaCam owners forum (all you need is your machine serial number). There you should post what you have posted here. There are a few thousand ownsers, many with the DHC system that you have, that can help answer and solve your issues.

A comment that I have:

The swirl ring that you need to use with Fine Cut consumables is the same as the one you use with the rest of the mechanized consumables. Stick with the part numbers (shield, nozzle, electrode, swirl ring) exactly as listed in the mechanized torch cut charts (even if you are using a hnd torch mounted on your machine) and you will get best results. The swirl ring designated for FineCut is for hand held cutting only.

The DHC uses a stall force (as do many cnc plasma systems) to sense the surface of the plate. The trick is to set the stall force to overcome friction in the z axis slide, but light enough to not deflect the material. Tricky, especially on thin material. The newer PlasmaCam systems use ohmic contact with absolutely no deflection even on thin gauge.

The z axis slide needs to stay clean....it uses a stepper motor which will lose position if it binds. On newer PlasmaCams with ohmic plate contact there is no need to ever set z axis shift, as it can Auto Zero before every cut, and height is simply set by setting the actual physical height in the Height control settings. On the DHC, the other users will help you develop the best method for accurately setting the z axis shift, which changes when you change from FineCut to standard consumables.....but should remain constant other than that.


Jim Colt Hypertherm

yeomansjon wrote:I am suspecting that I have a bad Z-axis motor and looking for help confirming that before I buy a new one. I feel like someone must have run into the same problems before that I am having but when I did a search I didn't really see any topics that sounded like my issue.

My Setup - Plasmacam DHC 4x4, Hypertherm Powermax 1000 w/ T60 Torch, 40amp Fine Cut Consumables w/smaller swirl ring, 11 gauge (.120") Mild Cold Rolled Steel Plate, Plenty of clean dry air.

Bottom Line before i give the history run down is that i can never get the z-axis to come back to the same position. If i zero out the z-axis, send the gantry home, then come back to the same position, the z-axis position readout shows a different point and when I re-zero at the exact same spot (within a thousandths or two), the z-axis position changes by 10's of thousandths at least every time. If I pause the cut while not cutting (checking pierce height), its different every time at the same place on the metal surface, and when I'm cutting and pause (checking for cut height) its different every time. Make Sense?

It started with chasing my height control issues in an effort to extend consumable life and improve cut quality. Been running the machine for a year now and it seems that some days i can cut all day with great success and other days it cuts like hell with no change in setup or settings. Finally trying to get a handle on it. I first found that my grating was warped and causing a headache when the torch came down to touch the metal before the cut. The spring action in the metal made it inconsistent so i often burned up a tip when piercing while touching the metal. Fixed that with new grating (nice and rigid and shiny!

Then while I was trying to dial in exact Arc Voltage Shift (AVS) set points to give me the proper cutting height based on the Hypertherm manual for my consumable setup, I found that often times when I tried to zero the z-axis, set the AVS, Pierce Height, Cut Height, at least one or two settings would be 'Out of Range' and it would force them to change to values I didn't want. With the 11 gauge metal and zeroing out on the surface, my z-shift was about .780-.950 depending on which Country Song was playing on the radio at that particular time it felt like. Sometimes it would go over 1 and force itself to a different number but then i would re-initialize and it would often come back within the range I put above.

I then noticed while changing my consumables out to be fresh that the z-axis motor seemed loose. So i pulled the whole thing apart to check and to clean (first time pulling this assembly apart). I noticed the z-axis motor sits on a plate that appears to 'teetering' on the end points like it is meant to do that. Did Plasmacam intend for this 'teetering' action? I have pictures of what I'm talking about and why it appears that the Pcam came with this intended to not sit flat and tight. Anyway, I cleaned the rollers and the rails (some hard gunk appeared to have been formed at the limits). When i put it all back together, the z-axis had much more travel than it used to! I always heard the 'grinding' when it would go to the top or bottom but many people have said (including Pcam reps) that it is normal to hear some chatter. I'm worried that the gunk prevented the movement and the motor chewed itself up. Could this be the case?

Like I said before, sometimes the machine works great, sometimes it doesn't so I know it's not 100% bad. Just intermittent. If anyone has run into this problem I am all ears to what may be causing my problem. Thank you all, you have been a great help in the past. :ugeek:
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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by yeomansjon »

Thanks for the recommendation. I have looked through the Plasmacam users community a few times in the past but haven't tried this one there yet. I will do that today.

I just noticed that the swirl ring is different, I have both kinds but didn't realize the one with smaller holes is for hand cutting only. I will change that when I get home.

Given how long the z-axis probably operated with limited travel based on the gunk build up on the rails i'm guessing it should probably be replaced and now I will be sure to keep those rails clean. Then I will see if my problem goes away.

I do not have a 'Force' setting available unfortunately. I have an 'Overtravel' setting but that's it. I'm not sure what my over travel should be but maybe I'll play with that once I get the new z-axis motor.

As far as the movement and 'teetering' action i'm seeing from the Z-axis motor, here are a few pictures to show what I'm talking about. It appears that Plasmacam intended for the motor to have some play. I only question it because being a guy that has a day job in engineering and working with fab shops I know that sometimes a production piece can have flaws so I want to make sure mine isn't one of them.

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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by SignTorch Vector Art »

I'm curious how old that is. I thought I'd seen an old one but it was so caked with dust and I don't remember it looking like that at all, but it was still running and cutting good....
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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by jimcolt »

That looks like an older DHC, and since the z axis drive motor spins its hollow shaft and the leadscrew is fixed (does not spin) I suspect the motor is supposed to float for alignment reasons. My 7 or 8 year old DHC does not look like that, neither does my new GoTorch. Posting this on the PlasmaCam owners forum will get you the correct answers.

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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by yeomansjon »

Ok thanks for the heads up. I don't know how old it is but will look at my paperwork later. I purchased the whole system used about a year ago. I think tonight i'll sit down with Plasmacam on the phone while I work with the settings.

... I think I'm also hearing it might be time for an upgrade... :idea:
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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by geo4932 »

The DHC z-motor mounting plate is designed to float. It should not be mounted solid.
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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by yeomansjon »

Thanks George, I appreciate it.
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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by yeomansjon »

*****UPDATE*****

So I finally had some time last night to play with the settings and call Plasmacam. Unfortunately by the time I got home from work I only had about 20 minutes left before they closed. However, after explaining my problem, Plasmacam figured my z-axis speed was wrong. Mine was set to 26 in/min. They told me that was way off and that it should be 47 in/min. Anything too fast or too slow will cause bad readings from the z-axis. So after that discovery, I decided to play with it for awhile and I am still having consistency issues. Sometimes it appears to work fine, others not so much. I will try to call them back tonight for another round of diagnosis. But in the mean time, I captured my settings if anyone here sees something that is glaringly wrong. The cut height and pierce height are at .1" since I was going through Pcam's procedure to calibrate those settings. I am cutting with 40a fine cut consumables with the Pmax 1000 and T60 torch. Thanks again for the help.

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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by yeomansjon »

In my latest round of trying to improve my cut quality, I have had the most difficulty with z-axis postion consistency. When I go through the procedure to set my cut height and pierce height, find that I have to re-initialize every time to even get close to the same value.

Example, to set pierce height, the procedure says to set pierce height at .1", and cut a path without the plasma cutter enabled. The nozzle comes down, touches the surface, then backs up to the pierce height then starts tracing the path. By hitting 'Stop', you can then measure the pierce height. When I do this, I change the z-shift to raise or lower and try again to see what change it made, the nozzle continues to go lower and lower each time, regardless of whether I increase or decrease the z-shift. If I re-initialize in between each round, then it starts to be more consistent. But not always perfect. I found the same issue when trying to adjust the cut height and stopping a cut half way through to measure and then adjust the arc voltage shift.

Bottom Line, If I start a cut (without the plasma cutter enabled) and it traces the cut path at exactly .12" above the metal, if i repeat the exact same function 4 times, each time will get a little closer to the metal and will ultimately touch and drag along the metal surface unless I re-initialize in between each trial.

Does this make any sense or does anyone have any insight as to whether this is normal or not? Any help is appreciated. I also posted this in the Plasmacam user's community, we'll see if I get any help there as well. In the mean time, I will keep cutting with a lot of babysitting for each cut. I have X-mas presents to make people!! :ugeek:
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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by MIFab »

This is interesting I have the same table although my plasma cuter is a H/M 380... I have issues where it will go to pierce height start to cut then work its way up then dive really close some times so close it shifts my steel and screws up the whole project :x ... I have learn to stand right there with my hand on the STOP button!
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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by david47julie »

I noticed in your advanced height control screen shot you have the max dive (inch/min) is set @ 20 which is too low. I had a similar problem. I increased the speed and that helped. Also you have height control disabled if speed drops below 80% whitch will stop THC from recalibrating on each cut if speed is below 80%. For example, short cut or small circles or tight curves the negative of changing it to a lower % is that it will dive on small circles or radiuses. So you have to play with that setting to get the desired results. Also make sure the rollers are clean and move freely and make sure the mating surface for the wheels are smooth and clean as this will also cause the same problem. Hope this helps ;)
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Re: Bad Z-Axis Motor and Encoder???

Post by geo4932 »

I noticed that you said you were using the Finecut with the smaller Swirl ring. You should be using the standard swirl ring instead. That really affects the height control.
When you set the Z-shift you have to start with the z-motor all the way up. Then jog down until the torch just touches the metal. Then Zero the Z-shift and reinitialize. The newer DHC2 machine has the ohmic sense so you don't have to do this.
The bolts for the z-motor come up from the bottom with the lock nuts on top so the motor floats on the plate to prevent binding.
The acme screw for the z-motor should be lubed with white lithium grease.
The height control does not adjust when doing s "dry run", it only works when the torch is cutting.
The edges of the torch holder plate need to be kept smooth and clean. The guide wheels must move freely.
If nothing works consistently then the z-motor is possibly bad with a worn worm drive.
George
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