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PM45 to 65 or 85

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rbmgf7
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PM45 to 65 or 85

Postby rbmgf7 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:33 pm

I just picked up a client who uses a lot of 1/4". He was impressed with my first batch so he wants me to cut more parts now. I had to essentially cut 500 5" donuts. Used 3 4x8 sheets but it took me nearly 3 full days to cut. I had the 45 down to 30 IPM on the water table; anything faster caused the cut to "kickback": what I call not cutting all the way through. So, that has me running at 50% of the manual IPM. Well, the 45 was a beast and didn't throw a single fit. I couldn't tell how many consumables I used because I actually reused a bunch of old ones that I thought were toast. I started the last sheet with a new set of consumables and it cut 170 parts flawlessly. My Mach3 OTOH decided to have a brainfart on the second sheet and suddenly offset and scrap a couple parts :roll: . Parts came out great and was able to knock any dross off effortlessly with a chisel.

I figure if I move up, would the 85 be overkill or can I get away with a 65? I'm sure everyone says more is better but I really can't cut anything over 1/4" just because the nature of my work conditions. My material handling capabilities max out at 1/4" 4x8 sheets.

It's almost $800 from the 65 to the 85 if I get the mech torch.

I'm just running a homemade table with ESS and Proma. I would like to finally take advantage of the fine cut consumables. How would the consumable longevity be between the 65 and 85 on cutting 1/4"?

jimcolt
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Re: PM45 to 65 or 85

Postby jimcolt » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:33 am

You should have been running 45 to 48 ipm (book speeds) with the 45 on that 1/4". If the arc was not penetrating at that speed I suggest something was not right! (wrong height, inadequate cut air pressure, bad nozzle or shield,bad torch o-ring, etc.). I use an 85 on my cnc table....and if I want best cut quality on 1/4" I use the 45 amp shielded process which cuts just like the 45, 45XP, 65 and 105 systems. If you can live with a little more bevel you can go with the 65 amp process or the 85 with even more.....these two processes will cut 1/4" without any dross.

So the choice of system depends totally on what you need to cut in the future. Pierce capacity on a Powermax45XP is 1/2", 65 is 5/8" and 85 is 3/4". These are the practical ratings for each system. If 1/4" is the max you will ever do then you can do it with any of them, however best quality is always at 45 amps. Best regards, Jim Colt Hypertherm

rbmgf7
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Re: PM45 to 65 or 85

Postby rbmgf7 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:10 am

Hmm, so the trade-off with a higher amperage machine is more bevel? I guess that's acceptable if I can speed up my cycle time? So, the sweet spot for bevel-free, dross-free is 45A regardless of the machine?

I had a sample of their old suppliers parts and there was much more bevel versus my part. I could assume they had a much more powerful cutter since it was coming from a larger fab shop.

As far as my PM45 not cutting correctly at the ideal IPM, could a 50 foot mechanized lead inflict more resistance versus a shorter lead? In one case I had all new consumables except a shield and whenever I sped up the feedrate, it would sometimes not cut through or leave a lot of "heavy" dross.

Old Iron
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Re: PM45 to 65 or 85

Postby Old Iron » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:37 pm

I've got a Powermax 600 40 amp machine with a PAC machine torch 50' torch lead.
It cuts 1/4" at 48 ipm, 40 amps, 78 psi open flow very well.
When using a 25' torch lead the air pressure is 72 psi open air flow, with a 50' torch lead the air pressure is 78 psi open air flow.

jimcolt
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Re: PM45 to 65 or 85

Postby jimcolt » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:27 pm

You should run the cut air pressure at about 4 psi higher with a 50' torch lead vs a 25' lead.

High amperage is for cutting thicker material.......it does not make more bevel if you match the power to the material and thickness. As an example 45 amps works best on 1/4", 65 amps works best on 3/8" through 5/8", 85 amps works best on 1/2" through 3/4".

I doubt the longer lead is causing your cut quality issues. Make the checks I suggested in my previous response. Also...be sure you are using genuine consumables made by Hypertherm, aftermarket parts for these systems will cause cut quality issues and can damage your torch. Jim Colt Hypertherm


Jim Colt Hypertherm


rbmgf7 wrote:Hmm, so the trade-off with a higher amperage machine is more bevel? I guess that's acceptable if I can speed up my cycle time? So, the sweet spot for bevel-free, dross-free is 45A regardless of the machine?

I had a sample of their old suppliers parts and there was much more bevel versus my part. I could assume they had a much more powerful cutter since it was coming from a larger fab shop.

As far as my PM45 not cutting correctly at the ideal IPM, could a 50 foot mechanized lead inflict more resistance versus a shorter lead? In one case I had all new consumables except a shield and whenever I sped up the feedrate, it would sometimes not cut through or leave a lot of "heavy" dross.

rbmgf7
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Re: PM45 to 65 or 85

Postby rbmgf7 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:34 pm

As far as my cut speed issue, I just burned another part at 45 IPM and it was 100% perfect (it's amazing how much an extra 15 IPM makes). Not sure what changed except the water level is now about 3/4" below the material. Before the water was right underneath.

I guess my 65/85 question is in regards to a production standpoint. I was thinking it would be nice to cut at 85 amps at whatever the recommended feedrate is for 1/4" with hopes to turnover quicker. Since I don't want to cut above 1/4" I guess there isn't much need for a bigger machine. But, if I grow, hopefully it will be at the same time the new 65/85s come out :D

I guess the only other thing I would need a larger machine is to take advantage of the 100% duty cycle for 45A but since my cuts aren't continuous or long, the PM45 has enough time to cool off and chug along.

PERKSFABLLC
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Re: PM45 to 65 or 85

Postby PERKSFABLLC » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:30 am

I have a 65 for my table but have been using it for hand cutting alot so ive purchased a xp 45. Am i loosing much by making this move? I deal alot with 1/2 and lower but deal some with 5/8s and larger...if i have to i can start running the torch off the truck to go larger...i just hate to j
Keep unhooking the 65 dragging it around the shop or taking it on a job...ive really put some unwanted wear on it. I bought a 30 air and its just really to small...i love it its great but i burn up alot of consumables with it due to the thicker material i often need to cut.

jimcolt
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Re: PM45 to 65 or 85

Postby jimcolt » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:55 pm

The Powermax45 xp is rated to pierce up to 1/2" (on a cnc machine) or edges start and sever up to 1-1/4". If you use the Powermax65 at 45 amps with 45 amp consumables....it will cut identically to the 45XP. Same torch design, same consumables at 45 amps. Jim Colt Hypertherm

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Re: PM45 to 65 or 85

Postby motoguy » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:12 pm

jimcolt wrote:You should run the cut air pressure at about 4 psi higher with a 50' torch lead vs a 25' lead.


That is interesting to know. Across the board? May be a cure for some of the bevel issues I've fought (since new) on my 50' PM85.
Bulltear 6x12 w/ Proton Z axis & watertable
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Re: PM45 to 65 or 85

Postby motoguy » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:25 pm

rbmgf7 wrote:I figure if I move up, would the 85 be overkill or can I get away with a 65? I'm sure everyone says more is better but I really can't cut anything over 1/4" just because the nature of my work conditions. My material handling capabilities max out at 1/4" 4x8 sheets.


I have a PM85. I'd say 90% of the stuff I cut is 14ga material. Mostly cut using Finecut consumables, but starting to move to regular 45A process due to the "finicky" Finecuts. IMO, the ONLY downside to the PM85 is initial cost. With the 85, you'll likely never run into a duty cycle issue, even on thicker materials. The 45xp/65/85/105 use the same torches/consumables, so the 85 can cut fine stuff just as good as the 45xp. However, it can also cut far thicker stuff that the 45xp cant. And it can cut it faster. Without duty cycle issues.

rbmgf7 wrote:It's almost $800 from the 65 to the 85 if I get the mech torch.


The couple of jobs I have done on 5/8", 3/4" (mild steel and stainless), and even some 1" mild steel more than paid for the difference between the 45xp and the 85. Just something to think about. A couple of those and you've made back your initial investment, and still have all the benefits of the bigger machine. I went with a PM85 and a 6x12 table not because I had a particular need (again, 90% of what I cut is 14ga), but because I thought it could offer a benefit down the road. Those two decisions have MORE than paid for themselves, in the jobs they were really needed (can count on a single hand).

rbmgf7 wrote:I'm just running a homemade table with ESS and Proma. I would like to finally take advantage of the fine cut consumables. How would the consumable longevity be between the 65 and 85 on cutting 1/4"?


It should be the same. I actually cut 1/4" on 45A setting anyway, for best edge quality. Those settings, on my PM85 using the 45A shielded consumables, are the same as the 45A settings you use on your machine. If you run up to 65A or 85A, I'd imagine the nozzle may be less damaged by the pierce, but the tradeoff will be increased angularity (and faster cutting).
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Re: PM45 to 65 or 85

Postby jimcolt » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:49 am

Keep in mind if you have the cut pressure set in auto mode.....switching from a 25' torch lead to a 50' lead will auto increase the cut pressure by 4 psi. The different lead lengths are sensed by the plasma system and air pressure is compensated. The reason I posted that an increase was needed on longer leads were for those applications where the air pressure is set remotely using the serial interface port (only some cnc machines do that)

Jim Colt




motoguy wrote:
jimcolt wrote:You should run the cut air pressure at about 4 psi higher with a 50' torch lead vs a 25' lead.


That is interesting to know. Across the board? May be a cure for some of the bevel issues I've fought (since new) on my 50' PM85.

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Re: PM45 to 65 or 85

Postby steel 35 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:05 am

rbmgf7 wrote:.It's almost $800 from the 65 to the 85 if I get the mech torch.


Many people overlook the fact it may cost this much to upgrade your wiring to handle the difference, from the 65 to the 85 as well.
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