Copyright letter

[ColoradoWayne]

I never thought it would happen to me - but it has!

[rdj357]

Usually a cease and desist letter will come from the in-house counsel of a large manufacturer and I'd be surprised to see a demand for payment.

Stop infringing on the copyrights and have your attorney review this letter to see if it is legitimate and so they can respond as needed. A few hundred for an attorney drafted letter will likely solve this first offense issue.

[ColoradoWayne]

You are probably right Robert, good advice.

[tnbndr]

Must have been more to post at some point!

[tcaudle]

I never thought it would happen to me - but it has!

Copyright law is really murky. EVERYTHING is copyrighted as soon as its created by the original author. It's designed to protect books , video, movies original works of art, photos, software, and music . So if you print a book of drawings you can copyright the whole book and all of the drawings if they are all original. You cannot copyright ideas , mechanical designs, shapes or things that occur in nature.

A logo is usually protected by a trademark and those have to be formally registered. A copyright CAN be registered but that is not like a patent or trademark. Whats confusing is registering a copyright is just a public statement you are claiming a copyright that already exists and the registration does not confirm or deny that it is something that can be copyrighted or that its valid. There is no reviews process by the Patents and Trademark agency.

If the letter is from a major company (with money for lawyers and a legal battle) or you have done an exact copy of a design and are selling it for money you could be liable for fees. Copyrights do not cover "objects" (as in shapes) or methods. Its not expensive at all to register a work with a copyright but its expensive to defend it. The holder has to show willful intent and actual financial loss.

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney but I have paid a LOT of legal fees!

[little blue choo]

Please share the letter.

Rick

[gamble]

Who's it from ?

[cstroke]

yes interested in who it's from

[ColoradoWayne]

Sorry, I can't elaborate any further right now. Need an attorney's advice. I will share more when I can.

[ColoradoWayne]

Ok, if anyone is still interested, I think I can now share a bit of my story - in order to enlighten others. First let me say we sell our stuff at a few craft shows and car shows each year - really small time stuff - it is a garage hobby business. The letter I got is from a major automobile manufacturer. It demanded payment, full accounting of sales and inventory, shipment of existing products and marketing material, as well as a few other things. Included in the letter were photographs of material that was in my booth. So, it is not that the big boys were out looking for me - it was that someone, a person, came into our booth and took pictures with the express purpose of turning us in. The big boys are not out to kill the little guys, but they have no choice but to protect their trademarks when violations are turned in. It turns out that this is much broader than just common logos - I was shocked at what all is included. You owe it to yourself to look through active trademarks and copyrights at https://www.uspto.gov/trademark. I don't know why someone would turn us in rather than just making their intentions known to me, but they did. So, moral of the story - don't say "it won't happen to me, I'm too small to bother with" because that is what I said. There are people out there that will turn you in without warning or consideration. Simply put; DON'T SELL ANYTHING that you think may be protected. I would love to hear from others that have had similar experiences or have more knowledge on this issue. PS - even if you buy a dxf and it says royalty free, YOU are responsible.

[icmplasma85]

What was the outcome or are you still fighting/dealing with it? I've always wondered what lengths companies can go to when you don't actually have a business. I do metal art as a hobby too, been pretty slow lately but I try to stay away from trademarked or copyrighted items. I just wonder what I would say if they wanted inventory and sales I've made, because it's a hobby I literally keep track of NOTHING! I wouldn't even know where to start if they wanted to know how many of such n such I sold. What lengths can they go to with a guy doing it as a hobby? Take there house, cars, personal property? For a small time guy I would think a warning would suffice just fine so can you elaborate on that at all? If not I understand.

[Rodw]

Wayne, I've had a similar experience with a vehicle manufacturer and the letter was accompanied with an invoice. I wrote back and never heard form them again. I've also received a phone call from a solicitor over one instance where clearly they did not have a leg to stand on. Call me a cynic, but I think there are legal firms out there engaged by some of the big brands (or even freelancing) who go out of their way to look for so called "infringements" so they can take fees off the brand to justify their existence. The easiest solution is to fix it to keep them happy because if you don't they might just make life unpleasant for you so they can charge their client.

[ColoradoWayne]

I can tell you that they were willing to work with me. BUT, I do keep pretty detailed records - everything I've sold since I started, by show, and current inventory. I did speak to a trademark attorney and was told that this is a civil issue (not criminal) so they can go after you personally. I am guessing that being honest and respectful buys a lot of goodwill. I would not want to test them though and let it progress to a real law suit; not worth their time or my worry and expense. Needless to say, I've not cut anything, nor will I, that I believe could be protected. I was warned, by them, that if this progressed to a lawsuit, attorney fees alone could easily surpass $250K. Simply not worth the risk, don't think dropping the few items impacted will affect anything long term anyway.

[ColoradoWayne]

Rodw - you are absolutely right! I know this particular one was legitimate, I did some research before calling them. I did have to send remaining inventory to the real corporate legal team too. Doing a lot of reading on the web, there are definitely scammers out there trying to collect on other's trademarks.

[tcaudle]

Your house, your cars , your personal assets and your "tools of trade" are protected by federal bankruptcy laws (expect from the IRS) . Any good lawyer knows this and knows its never worth suing individuals with no huge revenue stream or insurance. It's cheap to send you a letter and they put as much fear in it as they can. Being civil all they could do is go to court and get a judgment against you . Collecting it would be virtually impossible. They could attempt to file liens against any real property you have but it has to be free and clear and a lien only means you cannot sell it unless its cleared (and they have to be renewed to stay in effect. So if you get a letter, respond and say you did not realize you were infringing but admit to nothing and say you will cease and desist. Chasing civil suits against individuals or small companies is a looser proposition. Lawyers understand one thing: money. Really big companies have in-house council but they have bigger things to deal with than some guy in a garage selling a few hundred dollars worth of stuff. The burden of proof is on them. So unless you confess and send them all your records they have to find each and every circumstance of infringement. That then gives them proof of damages (which is always the basis of a civil lawsuit) If the logo or artwork is actually used to make money by the company or their agents (like their own logo merchandise) it's a lot easier for them to show damages .

One thing you want to avoid is the sports teams , collages and most schools because they belong to a "service" (building full of lawyers) that collect part of the royalties from authorized vendors of products, so they already have money and they justify their fees by showing the members they stop unpaid copies being made. They are impossible for a small guy to work with. They want you to send them a projection of your sales and they want a huge (non-refundable) "deposit" against the first years fees. They are a lot more aggressive because that proves to the members that they can justify all of the fees.

DIsclaimer: I am not a lawyer. I do have real world experience in the corporate world (and small business) and with lots of lawyers as friends and customers over the past 40 years, and having faced several legal actions both for and against me.

[plasmartist]

I am just curious about this. Is there a difference between having products in inventory with sports team logos vs adding a sports team logo to a product you are selling as a custom feature. I'm just curious because I make a lot of fire pits, and just about every customer has been asking me to add their favorite teams graphic.

[rdj357]

Reproducing their logo and many times just the words or phrase is against the law. Search for: [Team Name] trademark licensing. You'll likely find their page where they note the colors, phrases, typeface, and logos that are trademarked for their brand.

[little blue choo]

Thanks for the update Wayne. I have though of you and your letter several times and wondered what the out come was. Something for all of us to think about.

Rick

[ColoradoWayne]

Thanks Rick. I will admit it was a concern for a while; but I was lucky and their representative was very easy to work with. I did do a lot of research and although I do not believe it would of ever gone to court - I do believe they would make my life very uncomfortable if I didn't play ball with them. They utilize a legal firm that does nothing but trademark/copyright issues - they have way more experience and knowledge than I will ever have. All's well that ends well. I just wanted others to know it could happen to them and each of us should make an educated decision on how far we want to go with these issues.

[Gamelord]

I am just curious about this. Is there a difference between having products in inventory with sports team logos vs adding a sports team logo to a product you are selling as a custom feature. I'm just curious because I make a lot of fire pits, and just about every customer has been asking me to add their favorite teams graphic.

There is a huge difference. When you purchase a copyrighted item from a legitimate supplier, that supplier has paid royalties on the rights to use that product....the owner of the logo/item gets paid when it is sold to you - to sell to others. When you make the item and put it on your shelves, you make all the money yourself and they get nothing for their hard work in making that logo/item valuable enough for someone to want to buy it.

Making it yourself illegally basically lets you capitalize on their hard work for free. They don't like that type of setup.

It's all about money and them getting their slice of the pie while you get your slice.

[plasmartist]

what I was really getting at is that I don't advertise my fire pits as anything but a fire pit with optional customization. Whereas others are making products using trademarked logos etc. then going to market. I guess its probably still an infringement, just not as likely of getting caught since its not advertised.

[ColoradoWayne]

plasmartist - I believe you are absolutely right. Just depends on what level of risk you want to accept. Just takes one customer to show it off to the wrong person or become disgruntled and turn you in - or a jealous competitor to figure it out. No doubt tens of thousands of people are quietly (and many not so quietly) selling this stuff all the time and not getting in trouble. 10 minutes on Etsy can find more violations than you could imagine. Whatever your decide to do I wish you the best.