List of available THCs?

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Rodw
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Re: List of available THCs?

Post by Rodw »

Gee, you guys have been busy since I last checked in. Even the Poms have thrown in their 2 cents worth! Great to see such a lively discussion. I had hoped to ride in triumphant with some amazing examples of Beefy's "real life tests" but my plasma failed to give me an ArcOK signal so as the say on Survivor "I got nothing for you". I'm going to slate that one down to Mr Everlast but I need to troubleshoot my side of the wiring again to be sure. I suspect I have a sticking ArcOK relay in the plasma machine. There are so many points to respond to , I'm sure I'll miss one or two.

First off, let me say routerguys (and motorguys) should read no further. :D

Now I'm not an electronics engineer or anything, but from what I'm seeing, there are 2 advantages from using voltage to frequency conversion.
1. The calibration data on my THCAD says I've got 802,800 steps from 0 volts to 10 volts internally eg. 0 volts = 122.9 Khz, 10v = 925.7kHz
2. Presenting a frequency to LinuxCNC is a very convenient way to introduce a voltage to LinuxCNC as it can simply be hooked up to the (spindle) encoder input where raw numbers can be read in software.

So from my perspective, I'm not the least bit concerned with 10 bit, 12 bit or 16 bit resolution so I tend to side with beefy here. I just want results! Linux obligingly gives me this frequency in a float which can count to 3.4 x 10^38 which is infetestimatley larger than the paltry maximum value of 802,800 I need (by about 32 zeros).

So I guess the next thing to address is the questions about PID. From a LinuxCNC perspective, it does PID for motion control standing on its ear. Thats its strength. You can throw any servo motor at it and it will control it accurately using PID based parameters. This implies that the integrator has to know how to tune the PID loop (now thats something that makes my eyes glaze over). It also implies that LinuxCNC does this at 1 kHz frequency. Thats the standard timing for the servo thread which is integral to LinuxCNC's HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) SO thats where the 1000 times per second comes from. People have said that you can't possibly control an axis movement at that speed. Well you can and thats what I think might set LInuxCNC apart from an architecture point of view. eg. If the adjustment velocity is not right 1 millisecond ago, you can speed it up or slow it down right now.

So then in response to the question about what are you controlling? Well thats simple. We are controlling torch height (the distance from the torch tip to the material). PID does not care what input it receives. It can be the number of bananas in the Congo at this point in in time IF that is closely correlated to torch height. So in our case, we have chosen torch voltage because there is a close correlation between that and torch height over the narrow range we are interested in.

Does LinuxCNC use PID, PI or the number of bananas in the Congo? Well. we use PID. Now for Torch height control for various mathematical reasons that make my eyes glaze over, "I" is not useful to us becasue it is controlled by an outer loop. PID has two inputs in our case. The command (being what we want the torch voltage to be (at our desired height). I call this the setpoint). Of course the other one is the feedback signal which in our case is not the number of bananas in the Congo but measured torch arc voltage.

How are you employing Hysteresis? Some people call this the dead band. ie if the torch voltage falls in this range then do nothing. These parameters exist in LinuxCNC's generic PID component but the developers are so supremely confident of the PID control embedded into the THC component I am using, it does not exist at all. So the PID algorithm has complete and utter control of the Z axis.

What PID algorithm are you using? Well whatever the developers saw fit to implement. They did include an optional experimental pid derivative gain calculation based on:
"Control System Design", Karl Johan Astrom, 2002 Eqn 6.2: limit high frequency gain of derivative term Eqn 6.17: derivative estimation using backward difference. Now my eyes glazed over again just reading the reference title! Now with no disrespect to Karl, I found that this is not as good in our application as the default PID control.

When time is held constant (which is the case when using a CPU timer interrupt such as the LinuxCNC servo thread), the standard PID algorithm reduces to less than 20 lines of C code. I found this pretty amazing given the amount of mystique around PID control. Google it if you don't believe me.

How does LinuxCNC do it now? Well, the new experimental development branch I'm using which is not yet incorporated into the LInuxCNC core allows external offsets on an axis. That means external to the trajectory planner. It's not just been implemented for torch voltage control and I'm assured it has many other eye glazing over uses.

In our case, my take on it is something like this. The torch is blindly cutting away at say 2.0mm off the plate when it meets an aberration on the material surface. Say it finds a warped plate which means all of a sudden it is 1.8 mm away rather than 2.0mm. the Torch height control component applies an offset of 0.2mm to the commanded Z position so the next time the trajectory planner looks, it sees that the torch is off course and adjusts the torch height so its back on the commanded height (of 2.0mm) without even knowing the external offset is applied.

Time will tell if this will actually work but after I received some suggested revisions for my metric based machine yesterday, and a few tests, I am super confident my machine will be cutting +- 0.5mm or better as soon as its missing ArcOK is restored. I may have have to engage the Pom to make me a new Arc OK signal :lol: :lol: :lol:
robertspark
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Re: List of available THCs?

Post by robertspark »

That THCAD-10 has me interested via encoder input as that could work other CNC software and uccnc (anything that will take an encoder input really).

Downloaded the linuxcnc iso but gone no further with it yet.

Rodw, the branch you're using, where is it, does it have a wiki, thread link etc I can read up on.
Last edited by robertspark on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: List of available THCs?

Post by robertspark »

Allowing external offsets on an axis I believe is also known as " out of bounds axis motion "

One of the issues with uccnc / uc motion controller will be encoder reading... Now that I'm beginning to read up on the THCAD-10, I see that the default output frequency is 1 MHz at full scale 1:1 divider ratio, with options for 1:32,64&128.
The maximum encoder reading frequency will be 200 kHz (1/2 kernal loop speed), but the full scale reading is 10v, but given the voltage of concern will be 1-4 volts (50:1 divided input, therefore 50-200v or maybe a little less it may fall in well without the frequency divided output being changed to 32:1),

Hoping for a bit of a better shipping cost on the THCAD-10 from Mesa to have a play with
tcaudle
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Re: List of available THCs?

Post by tcaudle »

Now I'm not an electronics engineer or anything, but from what I'm seeing, there are 2 advantages from using voltage to frequency conversion.
1. The calibration data on my THCAD says I've got 802,800 steps from 0 volts to 10 volts internally eg. 0 volts = 122.9 Khz, 10v = 925.7kHz
2. Presenting a frequency to LinuxCNC is a very convenient way to introduce a voltage to LinuxCNC as it can simply be hooked up to the (spindle) encoder input where raw numbers can be read in software.
1. "Nyquist Rate" (look it up)
2. That simply supports using a different hardware solution. V to F is not a new concept. There are several ways to do effective A-D conversion and to provide isolation. There is even an analog isolation opto device. It (V - F) not used in higher resolution systems

understanding servo loops and things like "poles" and " low pass filters" and "phase shift" is part of the PID understanding.. Its only recently that that has been moved to the digital world because it has been around for decades as an analog approach. It is an integral part of regulated power supply design.
In the "old " days we did servo loop timing with formulas and passive components to do roll-off and phase shift.

A servo loop is complex when it involves mechanical things that have inertia (delay). Servo loops don't like sudden large changes (which goes to dampening)

The nature of the feedback ( and the sample RATE) are part of the overall PID loop along with any system latency, motion delays and pure mechanics. Even the final drive mechanical resolution plays a part.

I am sure the vast majority of the PS users have little or no interest in the discussion of PID theory, A-D conversion or engineering talk. Its like standign and listening to two Doctors talk in medical terms.

I am punching out of this thread. All I have to say, is get past the theory and the "angels on a pinhead " arguments and show practical users in a shop how they can get better cuts and improve their businesses.
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Re: List of available THCs?

Post by beefy »

tcaudle wrote: I am sure the vast majority of the PS users have little or no interest in the discussion of PID theory, A-D conversion or engineering talk. Its like standign and listening to two Doctors talk in medical terms.

I am punching out of this thread. All I have to say, is get past the theory and the "angels on a pinhead " arguments and show practical users in a shop how they can get better cuts and improve their businesses.
Ha ha, I agree :lol:

I think we are getting a little too nerdy and the only members taking much notice will be us nerds.

Most users will just want to know what a system can do, what its overall features are, etc. And they will want displays of such claims. Why it does something, how it does something, etc, most people won't care.

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Rodw
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Re: List of available THCs?

Post by Rodw »

robertspark wrote:That THCAD-10 has me interested via encoder input as that could work other CNC software and uccnc (anything that will take an encoder input really).

Downloaded the linuxcnc iso but gone no further with it yet.

Rodw, the branch you're using, where is it, does it have a wiki, thread link etc I can read up on.
https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/tr ... al_offsets
If you drill down in the menu to
configs/sim/axis/external_offsets/
You will get to the simulator which when compiled, becomes an option in the Linuxcnc chooser

the eoffset_pid.comp source is in
/src/hal/components/

These files may be a bit hard to read as documents are built during the make process from markup in the source itself.

As far as dividers go, 50:1 is not the only option out there. Hypertherm say the maximum divided volts from a 45 is 7 volts.
The 65/85 have a 20:1 divider option which can be scaled per the THCAD manual.

I did post a quote from Mesa earlier. Using the divided 1/32 resolution does not make much difference to accuracy but it improves noise immunity on the THCAD outputs for longer cable runs. Talking about an encoder input on their hardware).

And I'm really with beefy at heart. I just wanted to be a user and was going for the simpler bang bang component but part way through my build, this experimental branch was mentioned and I decided to give it a go.
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Re: List of available THCs?

Post by robertspark »

quote="tcaudle"]
I am sure the vast majority of the PS users have little or no interest in the discussion of PID theory, A-D conversion or engineering talk. Its like standign and listening to two Doctors talk in medical terms.

I am punching out of this thread. All I have to say, is get past the theory and the "angels on a pinhead " arguments and show practical users in a shop how they can get better cuts and improve their businesses.
[/quote]

Bit harsh.

Without understanding the theory, discussing what someone's viewpoint is, how they arrived at it and what you think you know, everyone risks going over old ground in attempting to do the same things again that others have done before and starting from scratch that is a waste of time (and life's too short for some of us nearer the grave than cradle ;) ). Whilst I understand your perspective from a commercial aspect I have no such aspirations, and this is firmly a hobby of which I have just an interest in, and little time for extensive r&d (I already have THC), but can still be interested in "if there is a better way" / attempting to understand how it works, or one may think it works or ought to work.

The thread title asked for a list of thcs which I think has definitively been provided or at least links to the various manufacturers, the discussion kind of then went off topic for which I apologise for (as I think it was me who did it, usually do), but there was some interesting things discussed and what looks to maybe be an easier option to integrate a voltage reading via encoder inputs that I'd not heard / thought of (or maybe understood earlier in the thread).

I thought this thread was in the general section of the forum and it wasn't the cut quality section, hence whilst it would be nice to arrive at better cut quality without understanding the theory or clearing up on assumptions, presumptions or myth someone would not be able to put together or build something that can be tested, logged and improved upon without first starting somewhere.

I think your business is safe Tom, and you have little to worry about from a few users attempting to understand THC and maybe do it on the cheap / diy, what it may do is spur an interest in newcomers who after trying it DIY or on the cheap see the light and upgrade to one of your top of the range ones once bitten by the bug (and given up on DIY due to work & life time pressures like some of us have with the day job that cnc could never replace)

I don't think it was nessesary to spit the dummy out / take the ball home if you didn't want to add anything else, but what you have added was great and much appreciated to give others a steer when going wrong or being misguided and to further consider. Keywords such as "Nyquist Rate" are appreciated will be looked into a little more in the same way I had an interest in kalman filtering and was reading about it for voltage and then followed it up as I had an interest in more detail with radar tracking and considered how it may be applied in other areas (CNC / non CNC) if someone was able to estimate the standard deviation with the potential to improving the signal (the catch is getting many logged signals to start with)

Interesting simple document here, takes me back to electronics at college on Nyquist rate if anyone is interested https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sourc ... XSz6Cw6nNQ

Happy to be a nerd thanks beefy, as long as I'm learning, keeps my from other vices.

(I'll get back in my box and head off the the other forum before I get banned over here...)
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Re: List of available THCs?

Post by Nacs Fab »

Robertspark, before you go I have a PM for ya just have a question or two not needed in this topic. Thanks!
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Re: List of available THCs?

Post by jimcolt »

From my perspective, and I have been working with arc voltage feedback height controls for plasma since 1978, the majority of customers would like to have height control in the background as an automated process that did not require any operator settings or tweaking.

Height controls on high end industrial CNC plasma's have been at that point for over 10 years, with most machine operators not even knowing there is a complex height control as the z axis of the machine. Locating the surface accurately before each cut is key to this, and having background settings for different thicknesses , types of materials, cut configurations and geometry automatically set from the CAM or CNC database is the norm.

The Light Industrial and Entry level cnc machine market has a few good height controls that are well integrated and co-ordinated with the cnc, however more work is needed. Most of the standalone THC's (not integrated as another cnc controlled axis) work like the ones I dealt with back in the 70's and 80's, and require a lot of operator knowledge. This will get better as these light industrial and entry level cnc machines continue to evolve. Jim Colt Hypertherm
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