plasma Vs Pacemaker
- exapprentice
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plasma Vs Pacemaker
Hi everyone
Just a simple ask (I hope)
Does anyone out there in the community have a pacemaker installed and run their cnc plasma table
I am asking from a personal point of view as there is a small chance that I may (hopefully not ) have the pleasure of having one of these put in.
I am just sussing things out as to the likely problems (or not ) that I might (or might not) have to factor in
let alone that I also Mig & Tig for a living
any feed back on this would be very much appreciated, if only so I know
Just a simple ask (I hope)
Does anyone out there in the community have a pacemaker installed and run their cnc plasma table
I am asking from a personal point of view as there is a small chance that I may (hopefully not ) have the pleasure of having one of these put in.
I am just sussing things out as to the likely problems (or not ) that I might (or might not) have to factor in
let alone that I also Mig & Tig for a living
any feed back on this would be very much appreciated, if only so I know
Best Regards to all
Exapprentice
(Pete)
10'x5' DIY table / PM 45XP + M/C Torch - Trying to add 4 axis Tube cutting
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Exapprentice
(Pete)
10'x5' DIY table / PM 45XP + M/C Torch - Trying to add 4 axis Tube cutting
Linux/CommandCandCNC MP3600 / PN200 / DCP-01 / PWM
Solid Edge, Inkscape, SheetCam, Scananything & Andonstar USB Microscope
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Re: plasma Vs Pacemaker
This question has come up before.....and it is one that should be asked of the manufacturer of the Pacemaker. It is unlikely that there will be an effect, however I would not take a chance without doing some further research. The engineers that design plasma, welder, and motion control systems would be happy to co-operate with Pacemaker engineers to determine compatibility.
Jim Colt Hypertherm
Jim Colt Hypertherm
- exapprentice
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Re: plasma Vs Pacemaker
Thank you Mr Colt
Hopefully when or better still IF it goes that far, I will, without saying raise what I do for my living and ask what can be done to avoid any issues
Thanks again Jim
Hopefully when or better still IF it goes that far, I will, without saying raise what I do for my living and ask what can be done to avoid any issues
Thanks again Jim
Best Regards to all
Exapprentice
(Pete)
10'x5' DIY table / PM 45XP + M/C Torch - Trying to add 4 axis Tube cutting
Linux/CommandCandCNC MP3600 / PN200 / DCP-01 / PWM
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Exapprentice
(Pete)
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Re: plasma Vs Pacemaker
I wonder if there's any type of jacket designed for this very reason. Maybe something with a kind of foil liner sewn in ??? to shield the chest area from EMI. Just a thought. I mean I bet there's plenty engineers in high EMI environments.
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Sheetcam
Alibre Design 3D solid modelling
Coreldraw 2019
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Re: plasma Vs Pacemaker
Medtronic pacemakers will have a history database that will show influence around HF plasma systems.
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Re: plasma Vs Pacemaker
The frequencies of RFI around non HF start plasmas are rather low in both frequency, harmonics and signal strenght . What does that mean? Well they penetrate shielding easier (like foil) but they are less efficient thorugh air . Its all about wavelength. The wavellength of a cell phone is a few CM where as the central PWM frequency of plasma and the motor controls is in the many meters range. takes more power to push them through air molecules but they go further and tend to bounce . I suspect a Pacemaker would not be subject to low frequency radiation . If you are worried you can put up a grounded sheet of 10Ga to block the LF wave. Thinner stuff would not block it but it would keep you Bluetooth from working!beefy wrote:I wonder if there's any type of jacket designed for this very reason. Maybe something with a kind of foil liner sewn in ??? to shield the chest area from EMI. Just a thought. I mean I bet there's plenty engineers in high EMI environments.
Modern electronic circuitry is so small and spacing is so tight that they tend to not react to low frequency waves (which is good because we are surrounded by hugh amounts of them)
Now...i submit if you get around one of the old high power HF start plasmas it may not cause the circuits to stop but it might try to extract the object from your body from the magnet pull(Just kidding) But, As jim said, the Pacemaker mfg should be able to give you things to avoid. They have to run years of tests to get FDI approval.
- _Ogre
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Re: plasma Vs Pacemaker
i'd try the foil hat idea from the internet forum
before asking a doctor or the manufacturer of the pacemaker
before asking a doctor or the manufacturer of the pacemaker
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an ogre smiley how cool!
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Re: plasma Vs Pacemaker
It will depend on what brand pacemaker you get. They all have different features to combat these issues. It will also depend on whether or not you get just a pacemaker, an ICD, or a BIV-ICD. All have pacing capabilities.
That having been said, if you get a strictly low power device (only a pacemaker) then the risk of damaging the device is essentially zero, however you may cause it to pace when it doesn't necessarily need to, the only side effect you would notice would be the occasional palpitation, caused from an extra beat from the pacemaker every now and then.
The issue has nothing to do with the actual wavelength of the noise, but rather the way the pacemaker (or ICD) itself works. They are designed to sense very small electrical currents (the ones in your heart) and use a wire placed in one or more of the chambers in your heart to accomplish this. However, you can overwhelm the device and basically blind it, by introducing noise at such a high amplitude that it prevents the pacemaker from seeing (sensing) the signals it needs to (the ones from your heart). When this happens, the pacemaker resorts to a noise reversion algorithm, and will pace at a set rate, until the noise subsides and it can tell what is going on again. Better to err on the side of caution, and pace when it's maybe not needed, than not to pace when you really do need it. If it did the latter, you could / would pass out, perhaps suffer injury, or even death.
As far as damaging the device, they are all built with zener diodes in the output circuits, to prevent current from flowing backwards into the device and damaging the circuitry (such as what might happen if you are defibrillated externally or perhaps shock yourself changing a plug, welding etc). The risk of you damaging the device is small, however, if you did manage to take enough current to damage the device, probably you are going to die from the shock anyways so it would be a moot point.
If you do take a shock (such as welding DCEP or using AC TIG with aluminum, no gloves and leaning on the work etc) there is a small (and I mean very small) chance that you could corrupt the memory in the device. They all have dual sets of memory, which is error correcting, but if it is corrupted past a certain point it can't correct itself anymore, and will basically reset itself. This is called POR or power on reset. Basically it goes off for a few seconds (2-5) the comes back on with out of the box factory settings, it will still work, but won't be customized for you. You can return to the doctor to have it checked / reprogrammed no problem, and carry on as normal.
If you get a high power device (ICD or BIV-ICD) then you run the risk of getting an unnecessary therapy (cardioversion / defibrillation) which will hurt like hell, make you sore, scare the crap out of you, but won't really HARM you unless you do it over and over and over again. Some manufacturers have better discriminators than others to prevent unnecessary therapies, some work great (Medtronic) some dont (St Jude, Biotronik, ELA, Boston Scientific, listed in no particular order). These are the same discriminators that attempt to tell the difference between A-fib with rapid ventricular response, and V-tach, and SVT, AVNRT, V-Fib, etc. Some need a therapy, some don't. Some need one, but not the same as the others.
I am not sure where you are, if there is socialized medicine, if you have a choice etc. I would, if it were me, request a Medtronic device. They have the best battery life, best discriminators, best remote monitoring, and in my opinion are miles ahead of their competition in all aspects of the business as far as CRDM and pacing are concerned.
Now, all that being said, because of the litigious society we live in, they are going to give you a huge book of what not to do, and welding is in there, with about 9000 other things.
Long story short, wear gloves, don't lean on the work, and don't work between the cathode and anode (the work lead and the ground), keep the anode (the work ground) as far from you as you can, and stay away from large magnets. Oh, and don't get inside the microwave and turn it on. If you follow those precautions you will be fine.
Oh, and I would find an eletrophysiologist to insert my device if I had a choice, but that's just me. I would rather have the guy that does 100 a month do mine, than the guy that does 10 a year.
Your mileage may vary, no warrant neither expressed nor implied, rinse and repeat as necessary, side effects may include itching, irritation, baldness, erectile dysfunction, anal leakage, and flu like symptoms. Yes, it is possible that I stayed at a holiday inn express last night.......
If you read this far, and still have questions, you can PM me and I will be happy to discuss it with you on the phone.
Be Safe
Shane
That having been said, if you get a strictly low power device (only a pacemaker) then the risk of damaging the device is essentially zero, however you may cause it to pace when it doesn't necessarily need to, the only side effect you would notice would be the occasional palpitation, caused from an extra beat from the pacemaker every now and then.
The issue has nothing to do with the actual wavelength of the noise, but rather the way the pacemaker (or ICD) itself works. They are designed to sense very small electrical currents (the ones in your heart) and use a wire placed in one or more of the chambers in your heart to accomplish this. However, you can overwhelm the device and basically blind it, by introducing noise at such a high amplitude that it prevents the pacemaker from seeing (sensing) the signals it needs to (the ones from your heart). When this happens, the pacemaker resorts to a noise reversion algorithm, and will pace at a set rate, until the noise subsides and it can tell what is going on again. Better to err on the side of caution, and pace when it's maybe not needed, than not to pace when you really do need it. If it did the latter, you could / would pass out, perhaps suffer injury, or even death.
As far as damaging the device, they are all built with zener diodes in the output circuits, to prevent current from flowing backwards into the device and damaging the circuitry (such as what might happen if you are defibrillated externally or perhaps shock yourself changing a plug, welding etc). The risk of you damaging the device is small, however, if you did manage to take enough current to damage the device, probably you are going to die from the shock anyways so it would be a moot point.
If you do take a shock (such as welding DCEP or using AC TIG with aluminum, no gloves and leaning on the work etc) there is a small (and I mean very small) chance that you could corrupt the memory in the device. They all have dual sets of memory, which is error correcting, but if it is corrupted past a certain point it can't correct itself anymore, and will basically reset itself. This is called POR or power on reset. Basically it goes off for a few seconds (2-5) the comes back on with out of the box factory settings, it will still work, but won't be customized for you. You can return to the doctor to have it checked / reprogrammed no problem, and carry on as normal.
If you get a high power device (ICD or BIV-ICD) then you run the risk of getting an unnecessary therapy (cardioversion / defibrillation) which will hurt like hell, make you sore, scare the crap out of you, but won't really HARM you unless you do it over and over and over again. Some manufacturers have better discriminators than others to prevent unnecessary therapies, some work great (Medtronic) some dont (St Jude, Biotronik, ELA, Boston Scientific, listed in no particular order). These are the same discriminators that attempt to tell the difference between A-fib with rapid ventricular response, and V-tach, and SVT, AVNRT, V-Fib, etc. Some need a therapy, some don't. Some need one, but not the same as the others.
I am not sure where you are, if there is socialized medicine, if you have a choice etc. I would, if it were me, request a Medtronic device. They have the best battery life, best discriminators, best remote monitoring, and in my opinion are miles ahead of their competition in all aspects of the business as far as CRDM and pacing are concerned.
Now, all that being said, because of the litigious society we live in, they are going to give you a huge book of what not to do, and welding is in there, with about 9000 other things.
Long story short, wear gloves, don't lean on the work, and don't work between the cathode and anode (the work lead and the ground), keep the anode (the work ground) as far from you as you can, and stay away from large magnets. Oh, and don't get inside the microwave and turn it on. If you follow those precautions you will be fine.
Oh, and I would find an eletrophysiologist to insert my device if I had a choice, but that's just me. I would rather have the guy that does 100 a month do mine, than the guy that does 10 a year.
Your mileage may vary, no warrant neither expressed nor implied, rinse and repeat as necessary, side effects may include itching, irritation, baldness, erectile dysfunction, anal leakage, and flu like symptoms. Yes, it is possible that I stayed at a holiday inn express last night.......
If you read this far, and still have questions, you can PM me and I will be happy to discuss it with you on the phone.
Be Safe
Shane
- exapprentice
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Re: plasma Vs Pacemaker
Shane
what more can I say, your a star, your little write up made me chuckle and feel a whole lot better and whole lot happier
like I said originally I am hoping it wont get that far but thought it would be good to ask the question on this site
I am surprised in this community no body has responded who has one installed or does that indicate that nobody who had one is now able to post because they didnt read the small print and used a microwave
Thanks everyone for your comments, watch this space, it will hopefully be a while (very long while if I get my way ) before I post again with what the outcome is going to be.
so back to work using all the kit and of course my table and make the most of it
I'm looking forward to forgetting the ground when I TIG now, just to get used to it
what more can I say, your a star, your little write up made me chuckle and feel a whole lot better and whole lot happier
like I said originally I am hoping it wont get that far but thought it would be good to ask the question on this site
I am surprised in this community no body has responded who has one installed or does that indicate that nobody who had one is now able to post because they didnt read the small print and used a microwave
Thanks everyone for your comments, watch this space, it will hopefully be a while (very long while if I get my way ) before I post again with what the outcome is going to be.
so back to work using all the kit and of course my table and make the most of it
I'm looking forward to forgetting the ground when I TIG now, just to get used to it
Best Regards to all
Exapprentice
(Pete)
10'x5' DIY table / PM 45XP + M/C Torch - Trying to add 4 axis Tube cutting
Linux/CommandCandCNC MP3600 / PN200 / DCP-01 / PWM
Solid Edge, Inkscape, SheetCam, Scananything & Andonstar USB Microscope
Exapprentice
(Pete)
10'x5' DIY table / PM 45XP + M/C Torch - Trying to add 4 axis Tube cutting
Linux/CommandCandCNC MP3600 / PN200 / DCP-01 / PWM
Solid Edge, Inkscape, SheetCam, Scananything & Andonstar USB Microscope
- exapprentice
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Re: plasma Vs Pacemaker
Hi everyone
I did say in my previous post that I would say what the outcome would be
Well for me its all good, hopefully, after having a double heart Bypass which has all gone well the consultant decided that a pacemaker was not required So I am good to go
after some time off I cant wait to get back to it all and cracking on
I did say in my previous post that I would say what the outcome would be
Well for me its all good, hopefully, after having a double heart Bypass which has all gone well the consultant decided that a pacemaker was not required So I am good to go
after some time off I cant wait to get back to it all and cracking on
Best Regards to all
Exapprentice
(Pete)
10'x5' DIY table / PM 45XP + M/C Torch - Trying to add 4 axis Tube cutting
Linux/CommandCandCNC MP3600 / PN200 / DCP-01 / PWM
Solid Edge, Inkscape, SheetCam, Scananything & Andonstar USB Microscope
Exapprentice
(Pete)
10'x5' DIY table / PM 45XP + M/C Torch - Trying to add 4 axis Tube cutting
Linux/CommandCandCNC MP3600 / PN200 / DCP-01 / PWM
Solid Edge, Inkscape, SheetCam, Scananything & Andonstar USB Microscope
- SeanP
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Re: plasma Vs Pacemaker
Great news, glad it all went well, look forward to hearing about the new 45 soon
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Table build gallery
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Re: plasma Vs Pacemaker
Shane
You must be, or have been, a device rep.
Very informative post. My wife happens to run a pacer clinic.
You must be, or have been, a device rep.
Very informative post. My wife happens to run a pacer clinic.
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Feather touch ohmic plate sensing
Hypertherm Powermax 65
2015 Autocad lt
Sheetcam
Mach 3
Central California